Enlighten Me [Archive] - My Hattiesburg

Conveyor Belt

03-21-2006, 10:07 AM

Walk outside tonight and look at the stars and tell me there is no God.

There is no God.

There is order. I don't believe in a personal God. This is going to rub everyone the wrong way, but here goes:

We are SO insignificant. Even Jesus was insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If Jesus is the savior of mankind, so what? He's putting billions of people in a heaven created by a god who created a universe with quadrillions of planets? It's hard to fathom how big the universe is. Looking at the stars makes me long for answers to my questions. But, in the end, it makes me realize how small and tiny and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things.

Jesus lived for 30 odd years, so what? That time, plus this time afterward is nothing. The earth's been around billions of years, and we've been obsessing about Jesus for 2000? 2000 years out of 4,000,000,000 years. It's nothing. And on this one planet, not the billions upon billions of other planets that are out there.

Do you think it's EASY believing as I do? There would be nothing easier than to accept the bible and Jesus and go to church, etc. But I can't do that. I've tried it, and it just about killed me. I was not born to be a Christian.

jmack

03-21-2006, 01:07 PM

CB, if you get a chance please check out this link.

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

just-Wynn

03-21-2006, 02:20 PM

There is no God. Can you prove it?

We are SO insignificant. Even Jesus was insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If Jesus is the savior of mankind, so what? He's putting billions of people in a heaven created by a god who created a universe with quadrillions of planets? It's hard to fathom how big the universe is. Looking at the stars makes me long for answers to my questions. But, in the end, it makes me realize how small and tiny and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things. We are tiny, but not insignificant. A persons significance is not based on what C-Belt believes, but what each individual believes and feels about themselves. You might think yourself to be insignificant, but ask your family and see what they say.

Jesus lived for 30 odd years, so what? That time, plus this time afterward is nothing. The earth's been around billions of years, and we've been obsessing about Jesus for 2000? 2000 years out of 4,000,000,000 years. It's nothing. And on this one planet, not the billions upon billions of other planets that are out there.Jesus lived as a "man" for 30+ years. He has exsisted for eternity. 4,000,000,000,000 years is "insignificant" in the eyes of Jesus.

Do you think it's EASY believing as I do? There would be nothing easier than to accept the bible and Jesus and go to church, etc. But I can't do that. I've tried it, and it just about killed me. I was not born to be a Christian. Yes, it would be alot easier to believe like you do. It's not that you weren't born to be a Christian, it's probably that you were never a "born again" Christian to begin with.

TheGenius

03-21-2006, 02:26 PM

Is that smoke I smell? Hmm, must be from the fire and brimstone.

Elle

03-21-2006, 02:52 PM

Nobody is born not to be a Christian. You choose that. It's alot easier to not believe in the bible than it is to believe. When the world is becoming more and more liberal, it's easier to follow the crowd.

CrackHead

03-21-2006, 06:56 PM

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject. What I do know is that I have often had many of the same question as CB. The more I think about it the more questions I have. I often find myself full of doubt but to be quite honest I feel emptiness when I doubt the existence of God. Maybe it is just a fear of my own mortality. I don’t have the answer for that either. What I do know is that having a faith in God makes me feel better. Sometimes I have a hard time wrapping the my brain around my faith and sometimes I have ignore some pretty questionable things but the fact of the matter is that I have tried it both ways and for me having a faith in God just makes me feel better and it works for me. My faith may not be of the traditional style. Believe me I truly do a lot of picking and choosing to make it fit me best but I feel that at least this way I have a basis, a foundation of which I can build on.

Now to wrap this up in the traditional Crackhead style: Look on the bright side. If by some chance you are right and there is no God well then you have lost nothing but I by some chance you are wrong and there is a God well then you have lost everything. A decision you make right now that could only take a split second could possibly effect you for eternity. Now I am a guy who is sensible: I would rather be safe than sorry!
:smt023

Mr moselle

03-22-2006, 02:46 AM

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 06:46 AM

and sometimes I have ignore some pretty questionable things

Yeah, I used to feel that way, then I started to research the questions I had, and that's when I found what I have now...

If by some chance you are right and there is no God well then you have lost nothing but I by some chance you are wrong and there is a God well then you have lost everything. A decision you make right now that could only take a split second could possibly effect you for eternity. Now I am a guy who is sensible: I would rather be safe than sorry!
:smt023

I absolutely love this argument. I'm sure your God would be proud of you for taking the safe bet. You're not the only one who wrote it out, and I'm sure your not the only one who thought it.

I'm not going to 'settle' for a religion. It's not reality.

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 06:59 AM

Can you prove it?

No, and neither can you. That's the main point of this whole exercise. NO one can prove anything. It's futile and ends up in a my-God-can-beat-up-your-God schoolyard argument.

[/quote]
We are tiny, but not insignificant. A persons significance is not based on what C-Belt believes, but what each individual believes and feels about themselves. You might think yourself to be insignificant, but ask your family and see what they say.[/quote]

My family is insignificant. It's so easy to think we're important. It makes it so much better to think what we do matters. If you died today, no one would think of you 50 years from now. 100 years from now, and you'd be a name. 1000 years and your existence would be nothing. You don't matter, none of us do.

Yes, it would be alot easier to believe like you do. It's not that you weren't born to be a Christian, it's probably that you were never a "born again" Christian to begin with.

By born again, do you mean baptised in my 20's, 30's after whoring around? I have been baptised, but it was when I was 8, a stupid practice and a stupid age for religion. Great for indoctrination, but not for religion.

It's not easy to believe as I do. You probably have this idea in your head that I have no morals. You probably think I think everything is okay. That's very far from the truth. I am very moral. Everything is not okay. You think it's easy being conservative and believing as I do? Do you think it's easy to have to explain yourself every 20 minutes to some Christian who believes it's their DUTY to personally deliver you into the arms of Jesus? I could go along with everyone to church on sunday and be immoral the rest of the week, but I choose to be honest to myself.

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 07:06 AM

CB, if you get a chance please check out this link.

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

Thanks for the laugh, that was GREAT!!!

I love how they lure you in with all the religions of the world and them BAM, there's the Jesus. HAHAHA!

"Oh, we respect the other religions of the world, but Jesus is the only TRUE thing" LO freakin L.

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 07:25 AM

Wow, that was the most plagarized thing I've read today. Oh, it's not just you, it's out there in about 50 different versions, with little parts switched around. Next time you cut and paste, can you please provide a link to the original material? It's just curteous to the original aurthor.

That being said,

Most who reject God wish to avoid the Bible because the Truth is like a burning ray of sunlight into eyes accustomed to total darkness.

Nope, no burning rays here...

The Bible cannot be ignored, however. No other religious book has the proven accuracy of the Holy Bible.

Oh, what's that you say Bible? Oh, I am ignoring you. What's that? You can't be ignored? Oh, watch me!
Christian arrogance... loads of laughs.

For example, the Old Testament mentioned a people known as the Hittites nearly 50 times. But for centuries, those who studied the ancient world questioned the Bible because they had discovered no evidence of such a people. In 1906, however, the Hittite capital was uncovered about 90 miles east of Ankara, the capital of Turkey.

Yes, and where is the Garden of Eden, oh wise one?

The Bible is not a science textbook. It often uses figures of speech to describe facets of life that science would explain in different terms. For example, it speaks of the sun setting and of the four corners of the earth. Scientists, of course, would not accept these statements as accurate. But they were never meant to be taken literally. When the Bible does speak directly about matters of science, however, it speaks correctly.

In the final analysis, the Bible and science are in perfect agreement. The God who created the universe and set in motion the laws that govern our world is the same God who inspired the Bible. He is the God of truth and does not contradict Himself. Therefore, when the Bible is interpreted correctly and science arrives at proven conclusions, they will be in perfect agreement.

Wow, you made my argument for me. Thanks! I love how when the Bible isn't accurate, it's because it's not suppsed to be literal, but when you can't prove anything one way or the other, its the infallable WORD OF GOD!!!! MWHAHAHAHA!!!! And then, on top of that, you hit me with the old, interpreted correctly line!!! OH, for joy! Who's to say who's right??? Preacher Brown and Preacher Purple can't agree who's right and say each other's congregations are going to Hell!!! I guess I just wasn't interpreting the bible correctly. By all means, let me put my salvation in the hands of someone else, because I'm to stupid to figure out the words by myself.

Now I could also talk about the Bible's incredible accuracy in prophecy after you've chewed on this a while, since you asked.

Oh, by all means, continue... I'm having fun!

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 07:28 AM

people fear the truth.
becouse they like the sins of the world.
geting drunk,high,porne,gambling,ect.
the feal if they turn to CHRIST they have to give up those thangs.
IM NOT perfect i have sin my self and i ask GOD to for give me.
and he is a forgiving GOD.I AM A BORNE AGEAN CHRISTEN.

Please, I'm sure I speak for alot here who won't say this to you, but invest in a free spell checker. We love ya, man, but this is killing me. I'm not going to take the cheap shots at you, but c'mon... Just click on the ABC checkmark in the top right corner before you submit your posts.

Tully Mars

03-22-2006, 07:44 AM

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 08:30 AM

CB, the biggest problem that I have with this whole thread is that you asked for discussion on faith and Christianity and most of your posts have been an effort to make fun of and belittle those who have responded. You have to understand that those of us here who do believe do so with as much conviction as you have in your disbelief.
[/quote

This is what I said:
[quote]
I'd really prefer if we'd stay away from Bible verses because it's easy to quote scripture. There are hundreds of holy books that aren't the Bible that are held in highest regard by their believers. What good would it do to quote those? If you don't believe in the book, what good is the scripture?

I said nothing of Christianity. Most of the posts have been telling me I was wrong. No one has asked me why I believe things or specifics, it's just been a berage of THIS IS THE BIBLE, ITS GOD'S WORD, DUMMY type of thing.. that's how it comes across to me. Not all, but most.

You asked for open dialogue and discussion but pretty much everything you have said since that first post is either in defense of your own stance or a criticism of others.

I think we're making headway... we're reaching an understanding... or something... lol

One thing about this board is that you have to be real careful what you ask for because you are guaranteed to get it.

Actually, I've gotten about what I expected. Some people suprised me... it's refreshing in some ways. Some people are confirming what I already believed of them. I'm aware of people's convictions in what they believe. I share the same stubborness. I started out saying we wouldn't change each other's minds, but could perhaps come to some understanding. No one sees or wants to admit that their child is ugly... beauty and religion are in the eye of the beholder.

jmack

03-22-2006, 11:07 AM

just-Wynn

03-22-2006, 12:02 PM

No, and neither can you. No? It's been proven to me.

My family is insignificant. It's so easy to think we're important. It makes it so much better to think what we do matters. If you died today, no one would think of you 50 years from now. 100 years from now, and you'd be a name. 1000 years and your existence would be nothing. You don't matter, none of us do. I'm sure your family would love to hear it lil Belt. People might forget your name 50 years from now, but will your influence still be felt. I think so. Everyone you come in contact with and relate to is sharpened or dulled by your words and actions. Everyone is shaped by the people around them. If you better someone's life or worsen it or affect it in any way, then it changes the way they interact and treat other people around them and it changes how they function in society. They, in turn, affect others around them etc, etc, therefore, giving signifigance to all of us.

By born again, do you mean baptised in my 20's, 30's after whoring around? I have been baptised, but it was when I was 8, a stupid practice and a stupid age for religion. Great for indoctrination, but not for religion.
Nope. Baptisim never saved anbody.

It's not easy to believe as I do. You probably have this idea in your head that I have no morals. You probably think I think everything is okay. That's very far from the truth. I am very moral. Everything is not okay. You think it's easy being conservative and believing as I do? Do you think it's easy to have to explain yourself every 20 minutes to some Christian who believes it's their DUTY to personally deliver you into the arms of Jesus? I could go along with everyone to church on sunday and be immoral the rest of the week, but I choose to be honest to myself. Yes it is. Don't kid yourself. As for morals, I have no doubt you have morals C-Belt. It kinda is our duty. You could. Good choice to be honest with yourself though.

big john

03-22-2006, 12:09 PM

I beleive atoms exist,but can anyone show me one?

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 08:43 PM

I'm sure your family would love to hear it lil Belt.

They know how I feel, and my wife and I are in agreement. It's doesn't mean we don't try any less to do well, it just means we know that the life we carve out will be filled in and covered over by future generations, forgotten for all time.

Yes it is. Don't kid yourself.

No, it's not. Nan-a-nan-a-boo-boo.

Buggy

03-22-2006, 09:30 PM

Where I come from we close threads like this.

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 10:02 PM

There are certain thinks that require you to have faith or at least some common sense. Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can't see the wind yet it exist. CB, you've made it clear you don't believe in God and thats your right, but I'm just curious how you explain the creation of the billions upon billions of other planets you talked about earlier.

I can't see bigfoot, but people have found footprints. Does it exist?

I believe in divine creation, but not a divine entity. I do not believe in a personal savior, or a personal God. I believe that we are on our own in this life, and what we do dictates what kind of life we have. I like to use the phrase, "I don't know". I don't know how the stars and planets got there. No one does. We can speculate all day long, but we do not know.

No one knows about the existence of a god. Anyone can believe anything, but it doesn't make it fact. What's true to you may not be true to me. There are absolute truths, but god isn't one of them.

I believe that organized religion is dangerous. I believe that most people are sheep and haven't taken an honest look at their beliefs. I've met too many people who believe in Jesus because it's the culture to believe in it. They are ignorant of their own religion. They can throw Jesus verses at you all day long, but they don't know what they're talking about. They're like brainwashed zombies. Take their bible away, and they can't discuss religion.

Conveyor Belt

03-22-2006, 10:03 PM

Are any of you Christian Universalists? If not, what do you think of them? Who's to say their interpretation is wrong?

fuzzis

03-22-2006, 10:22 PM

Last night I was thinking about things, and I came to a stunning realization. I did some strolling down memory lane. I know now why I will *never* believe in God.

And I'm more than OK with that.

fuzzis

RevranAL

03-23-2006, 01:35 AM

Dearest Brotha Converyor Belt,

While you are free to voice your ammendment rights on a subject that has been questioned by Man, since days of old
RevranAL senses from your viscious stance that you are a not truly saved, and for this, may the Lord have mercy on your soul

RevranAL
"Tis blessed to give than receive" my Brotha

Mr moselle

03-23-2006, 03:40 AM

I can't see bigfoot, but people have found footprints. Does it exist?

I believe in divine creation, but not a divine entity. I do not believe in a personal savior, or a personal God. I believe that we are on our own in this life, and what we do dictates what kind of life we have. I like to use the phrase, "I don't know". I don't know how the stars and planets got there. No one does. We can speculate all day long, but we do not know.

No one knows about the existence of a god. Anyone can believe anything, but it doesn't make it fact. What's true to you may not be true to me. There are absolute truths, but god isn't one of them.

I believe that organized religion is dangerous. I believe that most people are sheep and haven't taken an honest look at their beliefs. I've met too many people who believe in Jesus because it's the culture to believe in it. They are ignorant of their own religion. They can throw Jesus verses at you all day long, but they don't know what they're talking about. They're like brainwashed zombies. Take their bible away, and they can't discuss religion.
Well you will find out the hard way when you die.:( :smt102 :smt086
we only say this becouse we care.if we dint we would say nothing.:smt038

Mr moselle

03-23-2006, 03:47 AM

Tell us why you dont believe.how we got here,the earth,the sun,stars,rocks,cats,dogs,birds,plants,the air,all living thangs.

Conveyor Belt

03-23-2006, 07:49 AM

RevranAL senses from your viscious stance that you are a not truly saved, and for this, may the Lord have mercy on your soul

"Saved" is a term that is ridiculous to me. If I rape and murder 40 kids, then, before I die, truly take Jesus in, then I'm going to heaven? I don't know too many people who'd be comfortable sharing the same building as the person who raped and murdered their 4yo daughter, yet alone an eternal afterlife.

jmack

03-23-2006, 10:28 AM

I do not believe in a personal savior, or a personal God.

Do you believe that there is any God?

Conveyor Belt

03-23-2006, 08:39 PM

Do you believe that there is any God?

I believe that it is entirely possible that there may be many gods. The commandment "... no other gods before me" is an acknowledgment of other gods. You can read it as something different, but it could be interpretted that way.

I don't believe in a personification of god. We try to make god out to be our buddy and friend and a caring diety. There's too many things going on that aren't good to innocents that gives me pause in that belief.

I believe there is something. Everything's too perfect for there not to be. But I do not buy into biblical "history" on creation. I don't believe in the big bang theory, either, so I'm kinda lost and just give a healthy "I don't know" to that.

Jessica

03-24-2006, 04:26 PM

I know God exists because I have a personal relationship with Him. He speaks to me, inspires me, and loves me just like a father. When I have a need or concern, I just give it to Him, and He takes care of it every time.

I also know God exists because I have seen Him perform miracles when people prayed and He answered their prayers..... too many to list here, but I have seen people healed, financial outpourings, circumstances changed, etc. I have seen God move in numerous situations.

I do not have to physically see God to know He exists. When you are in the presence of the Almighty, you can surely feel Him. His presence is overwhelming.

I also know God exists when I look around. When I look at the sky, the stars, the clouds, the moon, the sun, the trees, the flowers, etc. (I could go on and on), I know He is absolutely magnificent.

For anyone who doesn't know this God I speak of, I'm certain if you asked him to reveal Himself to you, He would. God loves you, and His desire is for you to know Him.

Conveyor Belt

03-24-2006, 08:21 PM

For anyone who doesn't know this God I speak of, I'm certain if you asked him to reveal Himself to you, He would. God loves you, and His desire is for you to know Him.

I've asked and nada... I've invited him to strike me dead in the middle of a thunderstorm and nothing their either... I don't believe anyone's listening, or anyone cares... take your pick.

Conveyor Belt

03-24-2006, 08:32 PM

I disagree. "Innocence" is a man-made concept. No one is innocent: all are born into sin.

Your telling me that a baby, fresh from his mothers womb is wrought with sin? How can you say that? What has he done? What sin has he committed? If he dies, does he go to hell, as he has yet to hear about Jesus?

I wish you'd respond to these questions. You keep bowing out on me just as it's starting to get to the learning process.

Biggie

03-24-2006, 10:31 PM

Your telling me that a baby, fresh from his mothers womb is wrought with sin? What has he done? What sin has he committed?

When that little baby pee's all over your Fez, you gonna think "what has he done?"

reality

03-24-2006, 10:55 PM

I've asked and nada... I've invited him to strike me dead in the middle of a thunderstorm and nothing their either... I don't believe anyone's listening, or anyone cares... take your pick.

God is the author of life, not death. The devil is the one who comes to kill, steal, and destroy.

jmack

03-24-2006, 10:56 PM

I've invited him to strike me dead in the middle of a thunderstorm and nothing their either... I don't believe anyone's listening, or anyone cares... take your pick.

Maybe his answer is forth comming.
http://www.bible.ca/moving-hell-fire.gif

Conveyor Belt

03-24-2006, 11:56 PM

Maybe his answer is forth comming.
http://www.bible.ca/moving-hell-fire.gif

:) That's a good one!!! :)

Conveyor Belt

03-24-2006, 11:58 PM

God is the author of life, not death. The devil is the one who comes to kill, steal, and destroy.

God is jealous and vengeful... or so he says... He also says he's loving and compasionate... I guess it depends on which side of the bed he wakes up on.

Why is the devil given so much credit if God has the ultimate say so?

reality

03-25-2006, 12:06 AM

God is jealous and vengeful... or so he says... He also says he's loving and compasionate... I guess it depends on which side of the bed he wakes up on.

Why is the devil given so much credit if God has the ultimate say so?

God isn't jealous over us for His own sake but for ours. He knows that if we worship other gods or disobey Him in other ways, we'll fall into trouble and get hurt. He knows the devil is waiting to do us harm and He wants to protect us. Everything God tells us to do is for our own good and protection. We're His children and He wants us to obey Him because He wants to see us blessed.

We're the same way with our own children. We don't make rules for them just to restrict them and make our own lives easier. We are trying to help them stay safe so they can live long and things will go well with them (Ephesians 6:1-4).

XC9

03-25-2006, 01:43 AM

OH my! I feel it is better to believe now and find out we were wrong later than to not believe and get there and we were wrong down here. You would understand if you let Jesus come into your heart-the serenity is immeasurable. Don't you believe in angels either? Glad I found the right way in this lifetime. I do not believe we just "DIE", we just cross over to our new life with God and others who were believers.

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 07:40 AM

God isn't jealous over us for His own sake but for ours. He knows that if we worship other gods or disobey Him in other ways, we'll fall into trouble and get hurt. He knows the devil is waiting to do us harm and He wants to protect us. Everything God tells us to do is for our own good and protection. We're His children and He wants us to obey Him because He wants to see us blessed.

We're the same way with our own children. We don't make rules for them just to restrict them and make our own lives easier. We are trying to help them stay safe so they can live long and things will go well with them (Ephesians 6:1-4).

We also lie to our children. We watch out for them, and take care of them. We do not allow them to wander around unwatched. We take measures to protect them.

If you were omnipresent, would you allow your child to be raped or murdered or assaulted? What lesson are they learning from that? What did they do to deserve that? Are we just supposed to accept it as "God's Great Plan" and move on?

People look for the good in God, but if he is the creator of all, he created evil to. If he is omniscient, then he knew what would happen before he created man. What is that? Are we the Sims in his vast universe? Are we his ant farm? If he's all powerful, why doesn't he use some discretion and stop some of the horrible things going on? If he's all powerful, he could make us all think the same thing and be good. What kind of parent puts their child out there with no guidance, save for peers, and hopes the child makes the right decisions so they come back to you. But if the child denies your existence as a parent, who they've never seen, you're going to send them to an eternity of torture? Would you send your child to the rest of their life for torture if they decide to believe differently than you and worship a different way? God will, I won't.

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 07:47 AM

You would understand if you let Jesus come into your heart-the serenity is immeasurable.

I tried to do that, but it didn't take. In my younger days, I was church going. But it never felt right. I did the things other people did, but I was never comfortable and never felt the feelings they talked about. My greatest serenity came when I flat out rejected Jesus. I found a way of believing that did fill me with great feelings of joy and peace. I still remember the day... the feeling was/is enormous and great.

Don't you believe in angels either? Glad I found the right way in this lifetime. I do not believe we just "DIE", we just cross over to our new life with God and others who were believers.

No, I don't believe in angels, or devils, or God or Satan. We believe in some of the same things, we just have different reasons why they work. My way works the same way yours does, but we attribute it to different things. That makes me wonder if anyone is right, or if we all are. What's the point in being elitist when it comes to religion?

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 07:48 AM

Did Jesus die on the cross for man, or only for the men who decided to believe in him?

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 07:51 AM

When that little baby pee's all over your Fez, you gonna think "what has he done?"

If anyone has kids, you know that from the moment you see that little cheesy covered mishapen red screaming shaking baby that they're incapable of wrong. What sin do they carry?

Biggie

03-25-2006, 08:34 AM

Man, I was always taught we were all born into sin, meaning that all men sin. We wonder why God allows rape, murder, poverty etc... but those are all human things we fear. I would imagine a squirrel would be pissed if you took his acorn but I don't imagine that means God is mean to his creations. If we all lived in a world of peace and love with no death are hardships, then why would we even need God? Its like letting your kids grow up and leave home to make mistakes. They have to live through their mistakes to experience life.

Tully Mars

03-25-2006, 09:10 AM

Did Jesus die on the cross for man, or only for the men who decided to believe in him?

For all men (people)...the catch here is that belief in him has to be a choice. God cannot make anyone believe in him any more than we can make you change your mind. Its all about free will, you have to decide...no one else can decide for you.

MSQueen

03-25-2006, 12:33 PM

CB - Your concerns seem to center around *Religion* (Rules) as opposed to spirtuality. Life is an awsome and intriguing subject isn't it?

Do you abide with the *Golden Rule*? And, if so, why? You have acknowledged the difference in right from wrong, evil and good. From where did this common sense spring and why did it? Ingrained at birth or learned? Good or bad rule? IYO.
hawk, i'm so glad ur back with us! u add extra "dimension" to the posts here!
:-D

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 12:35 PM

Sorry for the long post, CB. I just wanted to add my two cents on infants being born into sin. Some here may have a different take on these scriptures.

No, it's perfect, thank you. I want a consensus on the issue, and your post proved that there really can't be. It's just opinion and belief. Anyone can pick verses to make any point, almost.

Personally, well, I think I've stated what I think of the whole idea. I don't believe a child is born into sin. I don't believe in original sin. I really don't believe in sin at all, soo.....

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 12:44 PM

CB - Your concerns seem to center around *Religion* (Rules) as opposed to spirtuality. Life is an awsome and intriguing subject isn't it?

You may have some idea, but most never give it much thought...

Do you abide with the *Golden Rule*? And, if so, why? You have acknowledged the difference in right from wrong, evil and good. From where did this common sense spring and why did it? Ingrained at birth or learned? Good or bad rule? IYO.

The Golden Rule is perfect, except when it comes to punishment. If someone kills someone, not caring if someone killed them, then who is to exact punishment on him? If you're treating someone as you'd like to be treated, then would you lock someone up or execute them? I know I would find it easy to convict someone to prison or execution, but I wouldn't want those things done to me. Other than that, it's a great rule to live by...

I really don't have a problem with most of the 10 commandments. Obviously I have issues with the ones concerning God, but the rest are great rules to live life by. If everyone follwed those rules, life would be easier. You wouldn't have to worry about someone stealing your stuff, or wonder if the used car salesman was lying to you, etc.

I think the sense of right and wrong is ingrained, just from a survival and survival of the species standpoint. I think the instinct isn't as refined on it's own as the ideals we hold. I believe the nuances to right and wrong are learned, but it is natural.

I don't really believe in "evil" as something that cannot be controled. I don't think some things are evil and others are good. It's mostly perception, although I think there are absolute wrongs. But then, maybe an extreme case could be made for almost anything...

MSQueen

03-25-2006, 01:21 PM

even though i'm not as well-versed and as knowledgeable on the bible, scriptures, etc., as some of the others to this thread, i do have some comments, since that appears to be all that con is interested in.

in my younger days, i too had many questions concerning "in the beginning...", i.e., how did God get here to create the heavens and earth, and numerous other questions that no one ever seemed to be able to give an "absolute" answer to. i had written in to some program with my questions, and the response i got finally sunk in, and i finally let go of my questions to things that could never have an absolute response. the response i got was that there are unanswered questions concerning the Bible, and that is where FAITH comes in.

i also was confused when i was in school, especially junior high and perhaps the lower years in high school, i think, when we were taught about evolution. in my memory, it doesn't seem that we really ever discussed it much, just that it was in our books. but i do know that it conflicted with what i believed as far as the Bible.

i know that part of the answers to some of my questions could probably be found in further bible studies and research, etc., but i haven't gone that route, probably because i am lazy in that aspect of it. but also i think that i finally realized that IF i was going to believe in God and what he stood for that i was going to have to accept him BY FAITH and BELIEVE that he would do the things he said he would do in the Bible. to question everything that didn't have an "absolute" answer would be to question my belief in God (that's how I see it).

there was also a time in my life when i went through a really bizarre period of time when i was about 12 years old, and my spiritual life was Nil. my dad was in the military and we lived on a base and i was around all different sorts of kids from different lifestyles, etc. i won't go into any details regarding what happened to me, but let's just say that i came out on the other side a stronger person with a stronger belief in God and since that time, even though i'm not currently a "church-goer", i have always maintained that belief.

u say u don't believe in the devil, demons, angels, etc. i guess that includes heaven and hell. IMO, just because u don't have all the answers to what u question doesn't mean it isn't true. it could possibly mean that the answers haven't been "revealed" yet.

i CHOOSE to believe in God, just as u can CHOOSE NOT to believe in God. i simply find it hard to believe that all of the beauty on this earth just "happened". every time i look at flowers, butterflies, peacocks, birds, rainbows, etc., etc., i see the incredibly beautiful colors and minute details to every part of every THING, i KNOW that it didn't just "happen"!

i also know that when i talk (my version of praying... lol) to God about my problems and tell him i'm turning them over to him to help me handle, i feel a release of the stress i had been feeling. i do believe that God answers prayers -- but not always the WAY we want him to, and not always in the TIME FRAME we want, but he does answer them.

sorrow, pain, suffering, etc. -- yes, bad things happen every day to good people, and i also wonder WHY. that is also where i have to have FAITH that those things are happening for some reason beyond my knowledge, and that ultimately, for those who are chosen to spend eternity with God, the pain and suffering, etc., will be over and will be forgotten.

put simply, given the choice to BELIEVE IN GOD or NOT TO BELIEVE IN GOD -- I CHOOSE to BELIEVE!

i hope YOUR choice brings u much happiness and helps u in ur bad times.

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 05:48 PM

i hope YOUR choice brings u much happiness and helps u in ur bad times.

I haven't had bad times since I rejected Jesus. That's the honest truth.

Let me thank you for one of the first honest posts I've had to this whole deal. You layed out your beliefs and feelings without scripture and preacher regurgitation... Thanks alot.

I can't just accept something that has holes in it. I don't understand how you can accept that you don't question God, just as you don't understand why I do.

Why are we so different? If we all come from the same place, why are we different spiritually?

Conveyor Belt

03-25-2006, 06:02 PM

Have you tried Buddism? Atheism is tough row to hoe; the questions never cease and mind gets no rest with lack of answers. Are you your own God? I have been in the past and my dog still thinks I am. Nothing could change his mind, bless his little loyal heart. And, if that's what makes him content and happy, why should I burst his bubble? :)

Actually, I've read Buddist texts... I find a religion where a noble death is starvation disturbing and hard to swallow. I'm not into wallowing in misery, and that's what Buddism brings you to. I'm not an Atheist by any means.

I've often wondered if I was my own God. I wondered philosophical about my humanity being my god dream. Sometimes I wonder. Maybe that's why we can make some things happen when we try.

Sounds like you've read up some. What I've found by reading different religious texts is that they've all got the same idea. There are some kooky things out there, but mostly they're about peace and forgetting about the negative feelings this life brings. Why do they feel superior to one another? A tree in any language is still a tree, is it not? We may call it different things, and view its uses differently, but in the end, it's the same. Most religions believe that they've found the only way to God, and they're out there to convince everyone else they're in error.

I find myself drawn to eastern religions, especially Taoism. It's changed my life for the better and made me who I am today. Christianity to Taoism in one fell swoop. Nothing makes me feel better than studying the I Ching. But I'm not wholly a Taoist... I've read some of the Falun Gong discussions. They've got some good ideas in there too. I wonder about their claims to supernatural, but I've seen and done some things in my life that I can't explain.

MSQueen

03-25-2006, 10:45 PM

I find myself drawn to eastern religions, especially Taoism. It's changed my life for the better and made me who I am today. Christianity to Taoism in one fell swoop. Nothing makes me feel better than studying the I Ching. But I'm not wholly a Taoist... I've read some of the Falun Gong discussions. They've got some good ideas in there too. I wonder about their claims to supernatural, but I've seen and done some things in my life that I can't explain.
con, i feel this is why you can't commit to religion (or spirituality, if u like). u have explored so many different ones that they all start running together and each makes u question and/or doubt the other. but, once again, ur choice...

Conveyor Belt

03-26-2006, 07:37 AM

con, i feel this is why you can't commit to religion (or spirituality, if u like). u have explored so many different ones that they all start running together and each makes u question and/or doubt the other. but, once again, ur choice...

It started when I knew that Christianity wasn't for me. It never felt right. It was like being in a relationship, but not loving who you were with. All around me were these people, and it didn't fit. I followed along, and tried, but it never happened for me. I got baptized, etc, stood before the congregation and spoke the same words they did, but it wasn't true. I was just copying what everyone else did. The older I got, the more like indoctrination it felt as opposed to religion.

When I started taking a serious look at it, I saw all of this infighting between Christians about who was right and who was best. There's no unity to Jesus, it was about what building you called your church. If the leaders of the churches cannot agree about Jesus, who was right? That's when I started taking a serious look at the bible and the history of the bible... and I really started looking at the word "Version" that's on almost every bible. I started asking myself the questions I'd been told to sequester. Questions I was taught were wrong to ask. I was wondering why people were using part of a book, and teaching it as law, as opposed to the whole book. What was in those other books?

Then one day, I was in the library, walking through, and saw this book on the shelf about Taoism. For some reason, I was drawn to it. I picked it up and started reading. The information in it was something I liked, and it made sense. There were expainations for things I have witnessed that there are no Christian answers to. Furthermore, the book layed out information for me to heal myself of a malady I've had since childhood, and had to plan around... No western medicine had been able to permenantly cure me. But this book, with something so simple, allowed me to be normal. I've believed in a mind/body connection for a long time, and this religion is that. It's not just your soul, but your body too.

That's when I started reading every religious text I could get my hands on. I'd ask for them for birthdays and christmas, etc. The more I read, the more alike they all were. They all had the same stories, just told in different ways. Some were written before certain books in the bible, some after, but they're all similar in ideas for life. Eternal life is a different post, but this life we're in now, they mostly agreed.

jmack

03-26-2006, 12:45 PM

I find myself drawn to eastern religions, especially Taoism.

Isn't that the religion that uses the ying-yang symbol? I remember my kids wearing those symbols when they were younger and I told them it was a symbol for bi-polar kids (just a joke).

That religion seems like something born out of a woodstock culture in ancient times. I'm would think that anyone with questions about Christianity that you would certainly question Taoism. I recall that many historians have written that Lao Tzu may not have even existed.

Conveyor Belt

03-26-2006, 01:06 PM

Yeah, there's alot to it that is questionable. It's not really focused on redemption, but on good life on earth.

The story goes that Lao Tzu was leaving in exile, and was begged by a guard to write down his teachings before he left, that book is supposed to be the Tao Te Ching. The I Ching is older than that, and really is more mysticism than anything. Of course, mysticism is part of the human experience if you allow it to be.

Conveyor Belt

03-26-2006, 01:16 PM

In the end, all this still begs the question - Who came before Lao-Tse? Who/where/what/why/how? Prolly, ageless questions not for us to know but to accept with faith as truth. I guess what I have to ask is, "Where did the spring of original thought begin"?

My questions without answers are thus:

In regards to Christianity: Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? If God is the supreme being in the universe, why can't he just wave his hand and let the way you worship him change? Why make the show? What's the point? What was really written in the bible and by who and when? Historians still don't have it set, still some arguments about what books have been re-written by conquering societies. Where was Jesus all of those years? These are some of my "I don't know" questions.

In regards to the nature of God: What came before God? Who created God? What is the point of eternity? Eternity is a long time, what do we do with it? I mean, it's a LONG time. This borders on the Christianity version of end of time, but after all of Revelations is played out, then what? Are you telling me you're going to be eternally happy just being in God's presence forever? It's like the first time you go somewhere you really want to go. You're excited, and may cry if you're overwhelmed, but over time, you build up a tolerence to it, and it's less fantastic. I just think after a while, you'd be bored. What do you do with forever?

I HATE not knowing things. I guess that's part of life, but I don't have to like it. I want to know so I can think about them. I want to know so I can stop tinking about them also.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 11:48 AM

I agree with Hawk that you have confused religion (something man-made and thus imperfect) with spirituality (something made by God and thus perfect).

So, the bible, a man made religious article is imperfect.

You have confirmed my beliefs more than you know by your proceeding statements. Thanks.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 11:52 AM

When a baby is born, they are totally and completely focused on nothing but themselves. They are eaten up with "I". Some people want to focus on horrible things such as murder, rape, etc., but self-centeredness is at the heart of all sin and a newborn baby has no other thought than himself/herself.

Does everyone back this up, or does anyone disagree with this statement?

I'm sorry, but I respectfully, wholeheartedly disagree with you. I'll save my true feelings and thoughts out of respect for your beliefs.

reality

03-27-2006, 12:31 PM

I do not believe children are sinners at birth. If they were, there could be no such thing as an "age of accountability." If babies are guilty and condemned for sin from birth, then there is no room for them to reach a certain age before they become accountable.

The Bible teaches that babies do not inherit sin. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Rom. 9:11.

Jacob and Esau had no original sin. We know this because they were not sinners while in the womb of their mother, Rebecca. Since the Bible says they had done nothing good or evil up to this time, we must assume that they became moral agents at some later time, after they were born.

There are numerous verses like this in the Bible which show the doctrine of original sin to be false and which also teach, either directly or indirectly the doctrine of an "age of accountability."

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." Deut. 1:39

"For before the children shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." Isaiah 7:16

"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." Gen. 8:21

Deut. 1:39 speaks of the "little ones" and the "children" who "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil."

Isaiah 7:16 speaks of a child coming to an age when he knows to "refuse the evil, and choose the good." Both of these texts speak of children coming to a time in their lives when they have a knowledge of the moral character of their actions and know there is evil which they ought to refuse and good which they ought to choose. Neither of these verses gives a certain age at which moral agency begins. This is because there is no fixed age at which children become accountable, since reason will develop earlier in one child than another according to his gifts and circumstances. But when a child's reason has developed to the point that he knows to "refuse the evil and choose the good," he becomes a moral agent and is accountable for his deeds.

This possession of moral knowledge or understanding is absolutely necessary before there can be accountability. A child must know the moral character of his actions before he can be responsible for them.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 12:39 PM

This possession of moral knowledge or understanding is absolutely necessary before there can be accountability. A child must know the moral character of his actions before he can be responsible for them.

How do we define sin, then? Is moral knowledge a precursor to sinning? If that's the case, would the "I didn't know" defense, if it's true, be an excuse? Is sin knowing that you're doing something wrong and doing it anyway?

If a child hasn't been taught that stealing is wrong, and is encouraged by his parents to do so, is the child sinning? Who's responsible for teaching that child moral knowledge?

If you're raised in an open society that encourages promiscuity, are you sinning?

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 01:00 PM

The Bible was an inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is NOT a man-made religious article. And the Bible is completely without error.

So men did not write the books in the bible? I can be inspired by the sunset to paint a picture, but the sunset did not paint it, I did. Inspiration does not equal perspiration. Man is flawed and imperfect. Man wrote the bible. Man (King James version) interpretted the bible. It is a work of men. Inspired men, maybe, but imperfect, flawed men.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 01:02 PM

So do you believe that someone (an adult for argument's sake) who never heard the Gospel will not be held accountable?

All of the people in the world, who died the day after Jesus, before they had a chance to hear about him, what of them? Or the people of the world who died in the 1400 years before Europeans brought their bible to this land we're on now, what of them? Are they all burning in Hell?

fuzzis

03-27-2006, 01:03 PM

So men did not write the books in the bible? I can be inspired by the sunset to paint a picture, but the sunset did not paint it, I did. Inspiration does not equal perspiration. Man is flawed and imperfect. Man wrote the bible. Man (King James version) interpretted the bible. It is a work of men. Inspired men, maybe, but imperfect, flawed men.

Written as a tool for conversion...I don't know that I've ever considered propoganda as perfect.

fuzzis

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 01:04 PM

It would hard for someone never inspired by the Spirit of the Living God to understand fez.

And it would be someone who is blinded by their faith to understand also doc.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 01:05 PM

Written as a tool for conversion...I don't know that I've ever considered propoganda as perfect.

fuzzis

I don't know... Both the Axis and Allies had good propoganda during WWII... of course, we know who's was better.:)

jmack

03-27-2006, 04:07 PM

OH, I'M GONNA ENLIGHTEN YOU ALRIGHT.....

http://jestkidding.gospelcom.net/devil/devil-with-weapon.jpg

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 04:11 PM

OH, I'M GONNA ENLIGHTEN YOU ALRIGHT.....

http://jestkidding.gospelcom.net/devil/devil-with-weapon.jpg

Did you spend all day looking for that picture? Surely you could've found a better one that that with all that education you're sitting on...

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 04:17 PM

As Christians, we are freed by our faith.

Let's make a wager fez, and I'll throw fuzzis in since she wants to add her two cents on God's Word as propaganda. Let's see who's right on the other side of eternity, how about it?

Consequences if fez and fuzzis are right - -> unclear. We may just "poof" into oblivion, which wouldn't be bad since we wouldn't be aware of it.

Consequences if fez and fuzzis are wrong - -> eternal torment and separation from everything and everyone.

Even if I didn't trust Christ as my Savior, when presented with this equation, I think I'd still err on the side of caution.

I really don't know how you would set up this wager, as any I can think of would have a Christian out on your side. However, I'd really wish you'd answer some of the many questions I've asked, as opposed to going off on tangents.

I know it's difficult for you to answer the questions, or the answers to the questions are difficult to explain to a non-beliver. Maybe you don't know the answers, and that's okay too. It's okay to disagree with one another. I just want to talk about it. All you've done is tell everyone they're wrong and you're right... very Christian of you.

jmack

03-27-2006, 04:37 PM

CB you are fun.

Conveyor Belt

03-27-2006, 04:43 PM

CB you are fun.

Right back at 'cha...:)

Mr moselle

03-28-2006, 03:42 AM

Did Jesus die on the cross for man, or only for the men who decided to believe in him?
he died for the world.

Mr moselle

03-28-2006, 04:45 AM

I really don't know how you would set up this wager, as any I can think of would have a Christian out on your side. However, I'd really wish you'd answer some of the many questions I've asked, as opposed to going off on tangents.

I know it's difficult for you to answer the questions, or the answers to the questions are difficult to explain to a non-beliver. Maybe you don't know the answers, and that's okay too. It's okay to disagree with one another. I just want to talk about it. All you've done is tell everyone they're wrong and you're right... very Christian of you.
the answer is jesus.:smt038 you have not answeerd my question.you tell me how we got hear the world all living thangs,the sun,stars,the moon.other
people have triyed but it comes back to the bible.and dill with my mis spelling lol.

Conveyor Belt

03-28-2006, 07:54 AM

the answer is jesus.:smt038 you have not answeerd my question.you tell me how we got hear the world all living thangs,the sun,stars,the moon.other
people have triyed but it comes back to the bible.and dill with my mis spelling lol.

Being uneducated is one thing, being ignorant in the face of a big ABC checkmark is another.

I answered your question in a previous post.

tempatv

03-28-2006, 02:26 PM

Maybe you don't know the answers, and that's okay too.

I'd be glad to ask HIM when I get to Heaven. I'll do my best to get ya the answers.

Conveyor Belt

03-28-2006, 06:25 PM

HEY cb - tRY THIS ONE ON FOR SIZE:

God is Love

But what is Love? Is it an emotion, or is it God? I donno about the whole Love thing.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
GOD IS LOVE???

Sounds kinda big brotherish to me.

How about,"Santa Claus is watching you (He's Everywhere, He's Everywhere!)"?

Conveyor Belt

03-28-2006, 06:26 PM

I'd be glad to ask HIM when I get to Heaven. I'll do my best to get ya the answers.

Thanks, finally some real help. Are you leaving soon, or do I have to wait around awhile for you to kick the ole' bucket? How will I know it's you, and not that other lady that's been visiting me lately?

Conveyor Belt

03-30-2006, 06:19 PM

CB, I've already offerred to sit down with you and talk with you about any of these issues. But your bravery to ridicule what you do not understand doesn't seem to extend beyond the keyboard and mouse pad. You've tried to get cheap laughs at other people's expense throughout this thread and others and quite frankly, I'm through discussing this here. If and when you are ready to have a meaningful discussion of truth, PM me and we'll set it up.

I don't think a sit down, try to convert me session is what I'm looking for. You've made it more than clear that you believe you are infallibly right when it comes to religion. Talking to you wouldn't be an exchange of ideas, but more of me holding an umbrella while you rain down on me. I'm not interested. If you are incapable of exchanging meaningful ideas through this medium, I hold no hope of you being able to do so in real life.

Cheap laughs at other people's expense are the spice of life. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to them is boring.

As for you being through discussing this here, you never engaged much at all. You just said I was wrong, you were right, and that was it. What a conversationalist you are!

Ahh... it was fun while it lasted.

Tootaloo!

XC9

03-30-2006, 11:37 PM

I have a question for you cb. Do you believe in spiritual psychics? I bet someone like John Edward would really send you off questioning what is and isn't. Might really freak you out.

Conveyor Belt

03-31-2006, 02:18 AM

I have a question for you cb. Do you believe in spiritual psychics? I bet someone like John Edward would really send you off questioning what is and isn't. Might really freak you out.

Have you ever seen someone parody John Edwards? That's what I think about him, mostly. I think he has a gift for reading people and guessing... I think he may have insight sometimes, but he's mostly just reading people and guessing.

I already question what is and isn't. I question it constantly. There's no mention in the Bible of your relatives staying with you after they die. They're supposed to be either burning in Hell, or basking in the eternal glory of God. Instead, Edwards has them hanging around your house, waiting for you and yours to die, too.

I've had experiences with dead relatives before. That's one thing that makes me question the whole religion deal. It's easy to grow accustomed to when your used to it. I grew up in an old family home, where I would hear people laughing in the kitchen at night when I was the only one there. You get used to it, and embrace it. It's better than being scared of it. What is it? I don't know...