Southern Baptist Convention 2006

[53NewYorker]

Does anyone know who wrote this article? I can't tell on the online version.

http://www.onlineindependent.net/cgi-bin/page.cgi?id=1061

[Monkey]

I don't know who wrote it, but it's definitely nice to see that the Convention may be moving away from the fundamentalist movement. I know that as a Baptist myself. . . I don't need any preacher or other member of the church becoming my line to God. I have my own personal relationship with God, thank you. It's terrible to see the Baptists becoming so political, and, from what I understand, the state convention is not much better. :smt086

[53NewYorker]

Well, I can't tell by reading this who the 'fundamentalists' are, but I'm not a fan of a Christian using this word as an epithet and calling his brothers a name. That's the kind of dissention folks outside the church use to mock the church and/or use to justify not going (http://atheism.about.com/b/a/058425.htm).

So who is the nameless writer talking about? Puritans? Calvinists? Teetolers? I'm lost. From your description, it sounds like these fundamentalists are Catholics.

And who are 'European Baptists'? Is he/she talking about the Baptist World Alliance, of which the EBF is only a part? And if that was so important, why not mention that many members of the BWA wouldn't be very Baptist here in their teachings so that it isn't necessarily a bad thing that the tie was cut (http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/content/news/2003/12_26_2003/ne261203bwabreport.shtml)?

For that matter, why bother arguing that throwing out liberal professors of denominationally-funded schools was a bad idea (http://www.worldmag.com/articles/9593)?

I'll post an expert from this article because it's about to disappear:
The administrative and ethical controversies, though, are intertwined with theological issues. In 1999, Mr. Sloan established the Michael Polanyi Center for the study of Intelligent Design, bringing on Mr. Dembski as its director. Many on the faculty resented a research center opening without their input. Some objected to the whole project of Intelligent Design, maintaining that its rejection of Darwinian evolution was unscientific and would harm Baylor's academic reputation. Eventually Baylor dismantled the Polanyi Center, though Mr. Dembski remains on the faculty.

Evolutionists on the faculty insist that they must rigorously exclude from their work religious considerations, including the investigation of the evidence that nature is not random but shows features of a created design. Many argue that science and faith must be separated, that science accounts for objective reality, while religion has to do with internal meaning. Mr. Sloan's predecessor, Herbert Reynolds, sought to bolster Baylor's academic standing by championing the "two spheres" approach, arguing that faith is a matter of inward piety: The "two spheres" of knowledge and faith must be kept completely distinct.

Mr. Reynolds, who still maintains an office in Waco and is a leader in the opposition against Mr. Sloan, made Baylor officially independent from the Southern Baptist General Convention in 1991. His position is that a Christian university should offer the same education as a secular school, while also giving opportunities for personal spiritual growth. A student could be taught evolution in a science class and creation in a religion class, since the two kinds of truth occupy different "spheres." This approach alludes to Luther's doctrine of the two kingdoms but misses its point, that while there is a spiritual and an earthly realm, God is king of them both.

Some Sloan critics also claim that interviewing new faculty about their beliefs violates "Baptist freedom," in which individuals refuse to be bound by any kind of creedal formula. They say that insisting on a particular biblical worldview violates the principle of "soul competency," which means that individual believers are free to interpret Scripture any way they think best. These same theological debates are part of the larger struggle within the Southern Baptist Church, in which "moderates," who downplay the objective content of Scriptures in favor of individual rights to choose what to believe, battle "conservatives," who insist that freedom to interpret the Bible does not entail freedom to disregard what it says.


Some of the discontent at Baylor seems to be a conflict between the old guard on campus and the new blood being brought in. Some professors distrust what the Baylor 2012 vision statement calls "very high expectations of faculty . . . these will be instituted in the form of rigorous standards of teaching and scholarly excellence for tenure and promotion." Calls for improvement and the advent of new assessment procedures imply problems in the way things are. The influx of new high-powered faculty can cause resentment, especially when they seem to get better treatment and are heralded above faculty with years of faithful service to the school.

Other Protestant critics of Mr. Sloan see him as theologically lax for tolerating evolutionists and hiring Catholics. When he appeared in 2002 at a televised chapel of Brigham Young University, he referred to the largely Mormon students and faculty of Brigham Young University as "salt and light" and "fellow children of God," terms generally reserved by Christians for reference to fellow Christians. For many conservative Southern Baptists, Baylor—long under the auspices of the more liberal "General Baptist Conference"—is associated with less than orthodox theology, including a refusal to embrace full biblical inerrancy.

[Conveyor Belt]

I read the print edition and the author isn't named either in the print edition. I was suprised by the anit-fundie tone of the article.

I'm not Baptist, nor Christian for that matter, and find the whole episode comical. When a group of people have to get together to decide what they believe, it makes me laugh.

53, on that last paragraph, do Baptists not see Mormons as Christians, or Catholics Christians for that matter?

[53NewYorker]

Mormons: probably not
Catholics: maybe (it would depend on how much the person really believed of Catholic doctrine that isn't necessarily founded on scripture; e.g. Purgatory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm)). The RCC gets things wrong, but its been doing a bang-up job lately and the church's doctrines do get scripture right sometimes. I think the Baptists would be more concerned about having a Catholic professor leading their students astray on certain points rather than leading them down the path to hell.

Anyway, if the person bought the whole of their doctrine, probably not. (see this link for Al Moeller on Marianism (http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fidel037))

[Monkey]

Well, Mr. New Yorker, this "name" that is used to refer to this group within the Baptist demonination is a name developed by the group themselves. As far as I'm concerned, that group has forced many veteran missionaries out of the field for nothing more than sheer politics.

[aaron]

I'm not Baptist, nor Christian for that matter, and find the whole episode comical. When a group of people have to get together to decide what they believe, it makes me laugh.

I could say the same for at least two branches of our federal government

[Monkey]

I'm not Baptist, nor Christian for that matter, and find the whole episode comical. When a group of people have to get together to decide what they believe, it makes me laugh.

My point exactly. . . this squabbling within our denomination is nothing but a joke to outsiders. I believe that we as Christians should try to be an example of what it means to live the Christian life. . . and instead people see us (Baptists) as fighting among ourselves. It saddens me because it puts a negative light on Christians. :smt086

[Conveyor Belt]

What's funny to me is the "I'm a Christian and you're not" mentality. Almost every sect of Christianity thinks their the only one's with the 'true' message and everyone else is going to Hell. If you believe that Jesus is the savior, then you're a Christian, to me. Just because you don't like what one group says doesn't make their faith and belief in Jesus any less than yours.

You're all Chrisitians and you were sent here to entertain me. Keep up the good work! LOL!!!

[53NewYorker]

Well, Mr. New Yorker, this "name" that is used to refer to this group within the Baptist demonination is a name developed by the group themselves. As far as I'm concerned, that group has forced many veteran missionaries out of the field for nothing more than sheer politics.

Thanks. I plugged fundamentalist and southern baptist convention into goooogle and found some pretty good articles on the subject:

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sbaptists.html
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/HowDominionistsTookOverSBCChronology.html
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_schism.html


From the looks of it, the Fundamentalists are:
1) for the inerrancy of Scripture
2) for the submission of women
3) for Scripture to be taken literally
4) against women as pastors and
5) against churches who blessed or sponsored homosexual marriages

Just reading these articles has helped me appreciate that there is probably some ill will surrounding the politics of the SBC assembly. I'll take your word about the missionaries.

I also note that the current president Frank Page identifies himself as a fundamentalist or conservative (he says "inerrantist" here (http://www.abpnews.com/1090.article)). The problem doesn't seem to be the theology or doctrines of the fundamentalists, it is their use of the elective system of government in the SBC.

So your point here is well-taken (at least the political part, I don't know about the Mississippi convention): It's terrible to see the Baptists becoming so political, and, from what I understand, the state convention is not much better

[53NewYorker]

What's funny to me is the "I'm a Christian and you're not" mentality. Almost every sect of Christianity thinks their the only one's with the 'true' message and everyone else is going to Hell. If you believe that Jesus is the savior, then you're a Christian, to me. Just because you don't like what one group says doesn't make their faith and belief in Jesus any less than yours.

You're all Chrisitians and you were sent here to entertain me. Keep up the good work! LOL!!!

This is a little too simplistic. There are disagreements among Christians, but I doubt that where two Christians disagree (say, on literal 6 day creationism or some other kind), they storm off and condemn one another to Hell.

The existence of disagreements (and, perhaps, denominations) among orthodox Christians is regrettable, but when you take the Bible seriously and do your best to come to grips with it, there will be important disagreement over verses like 1 Timothy 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=12&version=49&context=verse).

But I don't lose too much sleep about not keeping fellowship with Mormons (you can find a short article on what they believe here (http://www.watchman.org/profile/ldspro.htm)).

[aaron]

This is a little too simplistic. There are disagreements among Christians, but I doubt that where two Christians disagree (say, on literal 6 day creationism or some other kind), they storm off and condemn one another to Hell.

The existence of disagreements (and, perhaps, denominations) among orthodox Christians is regrettable, but when you take the Bible seriously and do your best to come to grips with it, there will be important disagreement over verses like 1 Timothy 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=12&version=49&context=verse).

But I don't lose too much sleep about not keeping fellowship with Mormons (you can find a short article on what they believe here (http://www.watchman.org/profile/ldspro.htm)).

I believe he is referring to TV Christians, which is a different breed than the average Christian. TV Christians will say anything to get in front of a camera, and a lot of agnostics laugh and assume that's what the entire Christian world thinks. Or at least, they would like to believe that's what they think.

[53NewYorker]

I believe he is referring to TV Christians, which is a different breed than the average Christian. TV Christians will say anything to get in front of a camera, and a lot of agnostics laugh and assume that's what the entire Christian world thinks. Or at least, they would like to believe that's what they think.

That's sad, but I guess you can't stop that. People will usually find what they are looking for.

[Conveyor Belt]

But I don't lose too much sleep about not keeping fellowship with Mormons (you can find a short article on what they believe here (http://www.watchman.org/profile/ldspro.htm)).


Wow. When I was a Mormon years ago, I never knew we believed that! What a great way to show what a mormon believes by giving a site that's anti-mormon. Maybe you can go to democrat underground to find out what republicans believe.

There are shades of truth in that article, but it's WAY off base and cites things out of context.

[Conveyor Belt]

No, you're not completely correct. Mormons believe that belief in Jesus is a prerequsite to eternal salvation, but only through good works and deeds can that be fully realized. Right now, all of those child molester and murders are sitting next to Jesus in heaven because they asked for forgivness afterward? That's okay, but me not believing in Jesus isn't.

I classify Christianity as anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus. They believe Jesus was divine, thus, by my definition, they are Christians. They consider themselves Christians.

[Monkey]

What's funny to me is the "I'm a Christian and you're not" mentality. Almost every sect of Christianity thinks their the only one's with the 'true' message and everyone else is going to Hell. If you believe that Jesus is the savior, then you're a Christian, to me. Just because you don't like what one group says doesn't make their faith and belief in Jesus any less than yours.

You're all Chrisitians and you were sent here to entertain me. Keep up the good work! LOL!!!

Conveyor Belt, I don't mock other religions, and I hope you would do the same for us. It hurts me to see that we as Christians are nothing more than "entertainment" for others. I'm not saying that fundamentalists are going to hell, but what I am saying is based on my own interpretation that I don't need their rules and regulations to tell me I'm a Christian and that Jesus Christ lives in my heart. For me, I know what I believe and I know where I'm going when I die. I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone, however, I would share my faith with someone who was willing to listen.

[Conveyor Belt]

I asked the Mormon missionaries last month if we were on a plane and we knew we only had 15 minutes worth of fuel left before we crashed and died, could they tell me how to get to heaven in those 15 minutes.




Of course they couldn't. It's not that simple to Mormons. I guess that's why we live in a great country where people are allowed to believe that it's either really easy and simple to live in the eternal glow of Jesus or really complicated and hard.

Maybe that's why it was so easy for me to go from Mormon to pagan... not that they hold pagan beliefs. They tell you that the punishment for those who've known 'the truth' and then turn their backs on it are worse than for those who've never known before... I'm digressing... It's easy because I believe that you get out of life what you put in, or you get rewarded by deeds, not by faith.

Months ago when we had the conversation about it being easier to be Christian than not, this is what I was referring to. 15 minutes to heaven vs. a lifetime.

[Conveyor Belt]

Conveyor Belt, I don't mock other religions, and I hope you would do the same for us. It hurts me to see that we as Christians are nothing more than "entertainment" for others. I'm not saying that fundamentalists are going to hell, but what I am saying is based on my own interpretation that I don't need their rules and regulations to tell me I'm a Christian and that Jesus Christ lives in my heart. For me, I know what I believe and I know where I'm going when I die. I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone, however, I would share my faith with someone who was willing to listen.

I'm sorry that it hurts you, but I make no apologies for laughing at the antics of Christians. You got a good idea, it's the execution of the idea by big churches and groups of people that makes the idea go to pot. Jesus the philosopher is alright, but a little too pro-poor for my liking.

There's a whole thread of me and my beliefs somewhere on this board. I don't shy away from what I believe, and I know you won't shy away from what you believe. I just don't want you to feel sorry for me or to get that look that Christians get when they get through 'witnessing' to me and I dismiss their entire speech... it's like they're expecting me to get down on my knees and pray for forgivness right then and there. That ain't happening.

[aaron]

It really doesn't surprise me or bother me. It's actually interesting reading to see different viewpoints, even if your laughing. But I've been on the internet for a long time, and I know there's a lot of CB's out there. As a matter of fact, on a lot of boards, just bringing religion up will either get you flamed or they just close the topic. I know by now you don't convert CB-type people by witnessing or arguing. You convert them by helping them up when they are down. Some are so adamant about thier non-belief, they would have to be way down. But I think for every person there is an opportunity. Whether a Christian takes advantage of it or not, that's the question.

[Monkey]

I know by now you don't convert CB-type people by witnessing or arguing. You convert them by helping them up when they are down. Some are so adamant about thier non-belief, they would have to be way down. But I think for every person there is an opportunity. Whether a Christian takes advantage of it or not, that's the question.

Well said Aaron.

ConveyorBelt. . . I understand what you are saying and I would imagine that there are some overzealous Christians who do display that "You're going to hell look" when someone doesn't immediately bow down to their beliefs. I have lots of Christian friends and several non-Christian friends, and I pray for my non Christian friends but not in a judgemental sort of way. I pray that they will be open to my witness. I also ask God to help me not come across as a fire and brimstone sort of witness. There are things that some of my non Christian friends do that I don't agree with and that my beliefs tell me are wrong, HOWEVER. . . it's not my place to judge them (but I would be lying if I said I don't stumble with that). I just pray that God uses me for His ultimate plan and that based on my beliefs I am able to be a witness to others (whether or not that is saying one thing about my beliefs) through my actions. It's completely yours or any other person's choice to accept or dismiss what a Christian has to say. . . BUT that doesn't mean that in my own private prayer time that I will stop praying for you or anyone else who has dismissed it. I hope that I am not coming across too Holy Roly. . . but that's what I believe and I'm stickin' to it! My faith is the most reliable thing I have in this world. Without it. . . there's no way I or anyone in my family could have gotten through the death of my uncle at such a young age. It was through his death that God used him as a witness for Him. I know this may be just rambling on to you. . . but to me it's hope for tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and so on. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to tell you this! :smt006

[Conveyor Belt]

Well said Aaron.

ConveyorBelt. . . I understand what you are saying and I would imagine that there are some overzealous Christians who do display that "You're going to hell look" when someone doesn't immediately bow down to their beliefs.


It's not really a 'you're going to hell look'. It's more a look of suprise that the stick of spiritual dynamite they were trying to light with a flame thrower didn't go off.


I have lots of Christian friends and several non-Christian friends, and I pray for my non Christian friends but not in a judgemental sort of way. I pray that they will be open to my witness.

See, this, I feel, is the main difference, and point of contention, I have with Christians. I'll never tell you that I'm going to pray that you become a pagan, or Buhddist, or whatever. I'll never go home and meditate on your becoming anything more than what you are. I think if Christians spent more time trying to perfect themselves rather than everyone else, they'd be in a better place.

[Monkey]

I understand what you are saying CB, and I don't know anything about Pagans or Buddhists, BUT the Bible commands us as Christians to be a Witness to others. Based on our beliefs, it says that if we do not at least make that attempt to witness to others, we will answer for those missed opportunities. It also says that we are not to be ashamed of who we are, but to "Go and preach the Gospel unto the ends of the earth." I don't stand on the street corner everyday preaching to people, but when the chance comes along I will take it. I also think that when someoe says to me that they aren't interested in my beliefs, that's their decision, however that DOES NOT mean that I will STOP praying for them. That, like I said earlier, is what Christians believe their mission is in this world. Their mission is to share God's word. It would be nice to win every person I meet to Christ but I understand that there are people who believe differently, however God commands ME to pray for those who are not Christians. It doesn't have to effect that person at all (ultimately I hope it would) but I don't understand how it could have a negative impact on that person. Some people I would choose to tell that I am praying for them. . . but there are others that I just pray for without saying a word.
I think Christians have to go into a situation where they are witnessing to a non believer with an understanding that their message could be (and in your case probably is) rejected. . . but that doesn't mean they should give up.

[Conveyor Belt]

Try to see it this way: Imagine going into a store where you're just looking around, and then a salesperson comes up to you telling you about the special of the day and pushing a sales flyer in your hand. Then, 20ft later, a different sales person comes up and does the same thing. You're not interested in buying, you're just looking, but they try to push you to buy. You politely refuse and they go on their way, then 20ft later, another sales person does the same thing, acting as if it's the first time you've heard the pitch. This happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over... don't just skip those 'and over's. I typed them out. read them. re-read them , re-read them again. Are you bored and tired of reading them. Read them again, and again, and again, and again... I'm not copying and pasting, I'm typing them out, again, and again, and again, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Do you see it? Is my perspecitive starting to sink in a little as to what it's like when someone starts witnessing to me? I understand it's your religous belief. Can you understand why I try to avoid people like that? Do you think you'd keep going to that store, or would you avoid it altogether? Deeds speak much more loudly than words. Deeds without words speak even greater.

[Monkey]

CB I do understand what you are saying and I can see how frustrating you could be with that. I would be frustrated with that also. That's the thing. . . I don't want to turn someone off and like I said if the opportunity presents itself I will take advantage of it. . . HOWEVER I'm not going to go out seeking people who are non Christians just so I can preach to them. . . like I said in my previous post "Some people I would choose to tell that I am praying for them. . . but there are others that I just pray for without saying a word." There are actually very few times that I share my faith (something that's very personal to me). I just hope that by letting others know that I am a Christian and trying as best I can with God's help to live the kind of life God wants me to that others will see that and wonder what it is that keeps me going. Like I said though, I'm not going to stand on the street corner and preach to everyone.

[aaron]

Witness through your actions. Sometimes they forget to tell you that in church. Go and do. Not go and say.

[Monkey]

Aaron, actually the Bible DOES say "Go and Preach the Gospel even unto the ends of the earth." I do believe though the best witness is the lives we lead.

[aaron]

I'm unfamiliar with that verse, where is it?

[Conveyor Belt]

Does that include cats and dogs and giant squid? Is this a verse that's supposed to be taken literally or figurativley?

[aaron]

Ahh, ok, it was the ends of the earth phrase that threw me, I didn't know where that entire quote was in the Bible. I had a long post here, but I don't think I'm going to get into the how of witnessing here. Witnessing is very personal, and different people do it in different ways. Some just harden the hearts of others with their witness because it's not a witness, it's regurgitated preaching.

[aaron]

Does that include cats and dogs and giant squid? Is this a verse that's supposed to be taken literally or figurativley?

Haven't you heard a preacher preach? They are so loud, every creature can hear them.

[Monkey]

Does that include cats and dogs and giant squid? Is this a verse that's supposed to be taken literally or figurativley?

CB. . . what that Scripture means to me is that I am to spread the Word with people God puts in my path.