School Day Goes Into Overtime

[fuzzis]

School Day Goes Into Overtime (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121101222.html)


A Prince George's test-preparation program battles fatigue and frustration to help students meet graduation requirements.

It's after school, and in a windowless classroom at Henry A. Wise High School in Upper Marlboro, Michelle Guinn is trying to lead 11 students through an algebra lesson.

The sophomores are tired and disgruntled. They're grinding through Question 40, which is meant to test their knowledge of the difference between a mean and a median. To calculate the mean, add the salary numbers together and divide by the number of people, Guinn explains patiently. As she writes the long equation down on a white board, some students punch it into their calculators. Others zone out. And Sydne Kersey starts to get frustrated......

The article goes on to talk about how frustrated the admin is that the program isn't being taken advantage of, and that they're thinking about making this a mandatory program.

Ummmmm...OK. Could they have their heads any further up their asses? I get that students need to pass these tests, but we're talking about high school students. What are a lot of high school students doing after school? I don't know about you, but I went to work. Beyond that, though, the issue of fatigue is real. Students (and teachers) need a break. There's only so much they can take.

I applaud the district for wanting to get something in place to help students, but they're going to have to restructure the school day...or the school year...to meet the increased pressures of testing and competitiveness.

fuzzis

[Astra]

If these kids are having trouble with the subjects, maybe it's not the amount of time being spent as opposed to how they are being taught - not necessarily that the teachers aren't doing enough, but that maybe these kids need some other kind of special attention than just a study session.

Making something like that mandatory sounds like a great way to raise the burnout rate.

[fuzzis]

If these kids are having trouble with the subjects, maybe it's not the amount of time being spent as opposed to how they are being taught - not necessarily that the teachers aren't doing enough, but that maybe these kids need some other kind of special attention than just a study session.

Making something like that mandatory sounds like a great way to raise the burnout rate.

Last week there was another article in the WaPo about a realignment of the math curriculum...to give it less breadth and more depth. I know that earlier this fall, teaching math, with all of the objectives I had to cover (I gave a district-required 9-week's test to 6th graders that was 22 pages long), I didn't have time to give most objectives the time they deserved. To make sure that students truly understood an objective, it should have been 3-4 days. I had 1, 2 days at most for each thing.

Very frustrating.

fuzzis

[LipsofanAngel]

Last week there was another article in the WaPo about a realignment of the math curriculum...to give it less breadth and more depth. I know that earlier this fall, teaching math, with all of the objectives I had to cover (I gave a district-required 9-week's test to 6th graders that was 22 pages long), I didn't have time to give most objectives the time they deserved. To make sure that students truly understood an objective, it should have been 3-4 days. I had 1, 2 days at most for each thing.

Very frustrating.

fuzzis

I know many teachers who feel the same way Fuzzis... my mom being one of them. It's not as bad now that she is at a different school than 2 years ago. She spent a year where she was required to do Direct Instruction (not sure how many people are familiar with it... I had never heard of it before)- DI in my opinion is academic child abuse. But, now with her at the school she's at, she still feels a lot of pressure to just cover as much info as possible. I've read some of the things that her students have written, and I can see how more time needs to be spent working on quality of their learning... not just quantity. And I pray for the day that administration will stop making teachers teach only for state testing! Teachers need freedom in the classroom to incorporate different learning styles. And somewhat off topic- IMO we need more funding for the arts in schools. Not all children will grow up to be lawyers and doctors. I think all children have some form of talent & potential... it just needs to be tapped in to. And sticking them in a room to study hours upon hours is not going to cut it.

[fuzzis]

I know many teachers who feel the same way Fuzzis... my mom being one of them. It's not as bad now that she is at a different school than 2 years ago. She spent a year where she was required to do Direct Instruction (not sure how many people are familiar with it... I had never heard of it before)- DI in my opinion is academic child abuse. But, now with her at the school she's at, she still feels a lot of pressure to just cover as much info as possible. I've read some of the things that her students have written, and I can see how more time needs to be spent working on quality of their learning... not just quantity. And I pray for the day that administration will stop making teachers teach only for state testing! Teachers need freedom in the classroom to incorporate different learning styles. And somewhat off topic- IMO we need more funding for the arts in schools. Not all children will grow up to be lawyers and doctors. I think all children have some form of talent & potential... it just needs to be tapped in to. And sticking them in a room to study hours upon hours is not going to cut it.

You'll shortly have TheDoc on here praising DI and saying how "those" teachers just didn't know how to implement it correctly. :roll:

I have a couple of professional pieces that I've started drafting that deal with my experiences back in the classroom the last four months, and the one that speaks to me the most strongly is based around "Building a Religion" by Cake...all about how school districts are looking for the next program, the next sure-thing that is going to ensure success. I know in my classroom, I was expected to run five different "programs" in addition to my actual teaching and remediation efforts. One of the teachers in second grade told me they were piloting 9 different programs.

When do teachers have time to actually teach when they've got to juggle all of those balls?

In another twist, we were talking last week at our professional book club meeting that many teachers are beginning to be reluctant to take on student teachers. With the pressure to improve test scores, veteran teachers are rightfully concerned that novice teachers will be unable to cover (there's that word again) all of the necessary material. We're already facing a very real teacher shortage...with teachers not only retiring but leaving the profession in disgust...and with novice teachers being unable to receive the training they need, or getting that training from teachers who are less than stellar themselves, we're setting up a very ugly situation here in a couple of years.

fuzzis

[LipsofanAngel]

You'll shortly have TheDoc on here praising DI and saying how "those" teachers just didn't know how to implement it correctly. :roll:

In another twist, we were talking last week at our professional book club meeting that many teachers are beginning to be reluctant to take on student teachers. With the pressure to improve test scores, veteran teachers are rightfully concerned that novice teachers will be unable to cover (there's that word again) all of the necessary material. We're already facing a very real teacher shortage...with teachers not only retiring but leaving the profession in disgust...and with novice teachers being unable to receive the training they need, or getting that training from teachers who are less than stellar themselves, we're setting up a very ugly situation here in a couple of years.

fuzzis

yes, and I worry about the day I have my own children in school. I'd like to send them to private schools, but what if I can't afford it? I'm starting to think homeschooling may be my best option as we continue to lose good teachers. Plus, I want my children to LEARN and not just be programmed little robots that can pass a state test.

[fuzzis]

yes, and I worry about the day I have my own children in school. I'd like to send them to private schools, but what if I can't afford it? I'm starting to think homeschooling may be my best option as we continue to lose good teachers. Plus, I want my children to LEARN and not just be programmed little robots that can pass a state test.

There are those who say that NCLB is a conspiracy to dismantle public education. I don't know if I can in good consciousness go that far, but at the same time, it's hard to not give into that kind of hysteria when you see what's happening to our schools and our children.

There are some brave schools and states out there that are refusing federal funds and thus don't have to worry about things like NCLB, but that's a hard row to hoe. I think things aren't going to change unless parents are willing to start protesting and telling their elected officials that they want something different for their children.

fuzzis

[Astra]

What exactly is this "DI" method?

I completely agree that schools are looking for the next big fix in too many cases. I left two schools when I was a kid because there was so much experimentation going on that actual learning took a back seat.

[fuzzis]

What exactly is this "DI" method?

I completely agree that schools are looking for the next big fix in too many cases. I left two schools when I was a kid because there was so much experimentation going on that actual learning took a back seat.

http://www.nifdi.org/

fuzzis

[LipsofanAngel]

There are those who say that NCLB is a conspiracy to dismantle public education. I don't know if I can in good consciousness go that far, but at the same time, it's hard to not give into that kind of hysteria when you see what's happening to our schools and our children.

There are some brave schools and states out there that are refusing federal funds and thus don't have to worry about things like NCLB, but that's a hard row to hoe. I think things aren't going to change unless parents are willing to start protesting and telling their elected officials that they want something different for their children.

fuzzis
yeah, I need to read up on NCLB. I don't know as much about it as I should... just hear mom complain about "that d@mn NCLB crap" all the time!

[Astra]

http://www.nifdi.org/

fuzzis
Wow, they sound like they hired a spam writer to write that. Love how it mentions the low cost and links to a price list.

I saw the bit about "small groups" and complete mainstreaming and my alarm bells went off. I would have been absolutely screwed without the pullout gifted program I was in.

[LipsofanAngel]

Fuzzis- do you know of any good websites on NCLB? All I have found are ones on government sites that talk about how great it is. I'd love to find some feedback from teachers on how it actually affects them in the classroom.

[LipsofanAngel]

I saw the bit about "small groups" and complete mainstreaming and my alarm bells went off. I would have been absolutely screwed without the pullout gifted program I was in.

Amen to that. I probably would have dropped out of school if not for the gifted program! haha The only 'B' I made in grade school was in a class in 5th grade that I was just absolutely bored to tears in. It was a reading/literature class... I stared out the window and wrote poetry grades 5-8. Took the poetry to my gifted teacher and was given good constuctive criticism and encouraged to write more. I think I learned more on my own than I did in the regular classes.

[Astra]

Fuzzis- do you know of any good websites on NCLB? All I have found are ones on government sites that talk about how great it is. I'd love to find some feedback from teachers on how it actually affects them in the classroom.
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_child_left_behind) is an article with a list of the supporting and opposing views.

[fuzzis]

Fuzzis- do you know of any good websites on NCLB? All I have found are ones on government sites that talk about how great it is. I'd love to find some feedback from teachers on how it actually affects them in the classroom.

I'm getting ready to head out for a bike ride, but the site that Astra posted raises some good questions. For me, one of the hardest parts about NCLB has always been what defines "research-based". Research in education is historically qualitative, and there's mountains of really, really good research out there that is qualitative. (claiming my bias here, but I tend towards qual--my dissertation will be qual and I'm interested in language; I like words, which is a natural fit with qual...although I do have a statistical minor so I'm well-versed in quant as well) NCLB ignores most of that, though.

I also have real issues with a single measure of progress...if you can pass this test, then you've learned.

I'll see what I can dig up later.

fuzzis

[nooskye]

how feasible would it be to eliminate the OMG amounts of testing the kids have to go through and leave it at one a year like it was 10 years ago? Make it a doosie, but only one ... that would leave the whole year to focus on the academics needed to pass it ... Or does that make too much sense to the education boards?? Sorry ... I do not like the public school system for pretty much this reason alone ... teachers being forced to teach to test instead of teaching to learn ... both advanced and remediated students suffer this way ...

[Hermione]

As a person who got certified to teach, and ran screaming the other way, and who has taught English on the university level as an adjunct and a TA here is what I want: I want you to scrap the d@mn research based objectives and all that other edu-junk. I want you to teach these children to write a sentence with a subject and a verb which agree in number and tense. I want you to teach them to carry a thought through a five-paragraph essay. I want them to understand how to make an argument without using the words "I feel. . ." and I do not want to have to teach parts of speech to college students.
Not that I get hot about this issue or anything.

[fuzzis]

As a person who got certified to teach, and ran screaming the other way, and who has taught English on the university level as an adjunct and a TA here is what I want: I want you to scrap the d@mn research based objectives and all that other edu-junk. I want you to teach these children to write a sentence with a subject and a verb which agree in number and tense. I want you to teach them to carry a thought through a five-paragraph essay. I want them to understand how to make an argument without using the words "I feel. . ." and I do not want to have to teach parts of speech to college students.
Not that I get hot about this issue or anything.

Well...I can guarantee you that parts of speech get taught from elementary school on through. They *are* taught. If your college students can't remember them, that probably speaks to the difference between being able to name something and being able to use the same thing, with the name being the least important part of the whole process. (there's 50+ years of research that now shows that grammar in isolation has no impact on student writing ability and, in fact, may actual harm writing ability because it takes time away from actual writing instruction)

Five-paragraph essays are extremely limiting and really are rightfully not explicitly taught by many folks. It's not an authentic writing experience. (When was the last time you had to write a five paragraph essay? I honestly can't remember writing one in my entire post-secondary academic career)

Teachers do teach all of those things; the problem is that nothing is contextualized...it's all taught in isolation. Students don't make the connection between what they read and what they themselves write. They don't understand how math and science and expository text go together...because we have no time to contextualize the skills we're asking them to learn. There is no connection year to year.

Nothing builds...it's just mind-numbing repetition. It's no wonder that students tune out.

fuzzis

[LipsofanAngel]

Well...I can guarantee you that parts of speech get taught from elementary school on through. They *are* taught. If your college students can't remember them, that probably speaks to the difference between being able to name something and being able to use the same thing, with the name being the least important part of the whole process. (there's 50+ years of research that now shows that grammar in isolation has no impact on student writing ability and, in fact, may actual harm writing ability because it takes time away from actual writing instruction)

Five-paragraph essays are extremely limiting and really are rightfully not explicitly taught by many folks. It's not an authentic writing experience. (When was the last time you had to write a five paragraph essay? I honestly can't remember writing one in my entire post-secondary academic career)

Teachers do teach all of those things; the problem is that nothing is contextualized...it's all taught in isolation. Students don't make the connection between what they read and what they themselves write. They don't understand how math and science and expository text go together...because we have no time to contextualize the skills we're asking them to learn. There is no connection year to year.

Nothing builds...it's just mind-numbing repetition. It's no wonder that students tune out.

fuzzis

So when my mom's 7th graders can't write a sentence with subject-verb agreement... should she just correct their mistakes or take time to actually teach a lesson on it?

It's so awful that my mom LOVES grammar (she would diagram senetences for entertainment if dad would let her!) yet my grammar & spelling are terrible! Commas are the worst for me... I never know when to use 'em!

[fuzzis]

So when my mom's 7th graders can't write a sentence with subject-verb agreement... should she just correct their mistakes or take time to actually teach a lesson on it?

It's so awful that my mom LOVES grammar (she would diagram senetences for entertainment if dad would let her!) yet my grammar & spelling are terrible! Commas are the worst for me... I never know when to use 'em!

She should teach a lesson on it using their writing (grammar in context)...not a worksheet that talks about subject-verb agreement (grammar in isolation) . If it were me teaching the lesson, we'd probably stop and take a look at whatever it was they were reading to notice what's going on with the subjects and the verbs. When they see a singular subject, what happens to the verb that goes along with it? When they see a plural subject, what happens to its verb? Then we'd come up with a generalization, and they'd take a look at their own writing to see if their writing matched our generalization. While they were looking, I'd be coming around and looking too, offering that boost to those that needed it.

In the larger scheme, when we were getting ready to edit, there would be "experts" in the room (students I knew who were good at those particular skills)...if you needed some help with spelling, you could go see Amy. If you needed help with s-v agreement, you could see Mike, etc.

fuzzis

[LipsofanAngel]

Please elaborate on this.

I just don't think it gives teachers the freedom they need in the classroom to really be able to reach out to each child. It holds back children who could excel. And from a child's point of view... how boring and monotenous that would be! Those childen will be scared for life everytime their hear a "clicker" noise! It leaves no room (from what I have seen) to foster any type of creativity! Plus it's added bullsh!t paper work for teachers. That time could be better spent thinking creatively on how to foster a positive and productive learning environment.

I have only observed DI in one school... which is why I have a REALLY BAD impression of it. Maybe the administration just didn't know what the heck they were doing and did not know how to properly implement this strategy.

[LipsofanAngel]

Most DI programs, especially in this state, are horribly implemented.

Exactly- which is why they should stop attemping this before even more damage is done.

[LipsofanAngel]

Well, I would think that they should simply spend their money to hire better trainers.

And this money will come from...... where?

[LipsofanAngel]

Well, as a former school psychological consultant, I can tell you that for all the bellyaching you hear about school funding, most schools, especially outside of Mississippi, have more money than you would think.

Plus there are mountains of grants sitting unused every year for this kind of thing. A small Georgia school received 2.5 million dollars one year for discreet trials training for their district Special Ed employees.


well, we are in Mississippi... so that doesn't matter.

And if there is so much money just floating around, why is it not being used? And why are teachers not being paid more?