Abortion and Christianity

[zorro]

On today's date in 1973, abortion was legalized in the United States in the infamous Roe v. Wade decision which ruled that women could terminate their preganancies during the first two trimesters. The ruling affected the laws of 46 states regarding abortion.

In 1994, on this same day, Norma McCorvey, the woman named as "Jane Roe" in the Roe v. Wade decision asked the Supreme Court to reverse that ruling in light of the fact that the case was based on fraudulent evidence. The court declined.

Regarding abortion, I've heard people say that the early church, or that the early Christians, did not object to the practice of abortion. This merely reveals ignorance on this subject by the ones who say it. Below are just a few examples showing early Christianity's view towards abortion.

Barnabas: "You shall not kill either the foetus by abortion or the new
born" -- Letter of Barnabas, c. 125

Athenagoras: "We say that women who induce abortions are murderers,
and will have to give account of it to God. For the same person, would not
regard the child in the womb as a living being and therefore an object of
God's care and then kill it.... But we are altogether consistent in our
conduct. We obey reason and do not override it." -- Petition to Emperor Marcus
Aurelius (121-180), c. 150.

Clement of Alexandria</ST1:razz:: (? - 215) "Our whole life can go on in
observation of the laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our desires from
the beginning and if we do not kill, by various means of a perverse art, the
human offspring, born according to the designs of divine providence; for
these women who, if order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which
expel the child completely dead, abort at the same time their own human
feelings." -- Paedagogus 2

Tertullian (c. 155 - 225): "...we are not permitted, since murder has
been prohibited to us once and for all, even to destroy ...the foetus in the
womb. It makes no difference whether one destroys a life that has already
been born or one that is in the process of birth."

"For us [Christians] we may not destroy even the foetus in the womb,
while as yet the human being derives blood from other parts of the body for
its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does
it matter when you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is
coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one: you have the fruit
already in the seed." -- Apology 9:6<O:razz:</O:razz:

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[zorro]

Here are a few other statements by early Christians regarding abortion.

She who has deliberately destroyed a foetus has to pay the penalty of murder...here it is not only the child to be born that is vindicated, but also the woman herself who made an attempt against her own life, because usually the women die in such attempts. Furthermore, added to this is the destruction of the child, another murder... Moreover, those, too, who give drugs causing abortion are deliberate murderers themselves, as well as those receiving the poison which kills the foetus. -- Basil the Great (circa 330 - 379): Letter 188:2

The poor expose their children, the rich kill the fruit of their own bodies in the womb, lest their property be divided up, and they destroy their own children in the womb with murderous poisons. and before life has been passed on, it is annihilated. -- Ambrose (339 to 397)

Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? Where there are many efforts at abortion? Where there is murder before the birth? For you do not even let the harlot remain a mere harlot, but make her a murderer also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather something even worse than murder. For I have no real name to give it, since it does not destroy the thing born but prevents its being born.<O:p</O:p
Why then do you abuse the gift of God and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the place of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? -- John Chrysostom (circa 340-407): Homily 24 on Romans

They drink potions to ensure sterility and are guilty of murdering a human being not yet conceived. Some, when they learn that they are with child through sin, practice abortion by the use of drugs.Frequently they die themselves and are brought before the rulers of the lower world guilty of three crimes: suicide, adultery against Christ, and murder of an unborn child. -- Jerome (circa 342-420): Letter 22:13<O:p

[aaron]

Zorro, what's your point?

[Conveyor Belt]

They drink potions to ensure sterility and are guilty of murdering a human being not yet conceived. (circa 342-420): Letter 22:13<O:p
[/FONT][/FONT]


I'm not feeling this one... c'mon, guilty of murdering a human not yet conceived??? That's like guilty of raping a woman not yet met, or stealing money not yet minted...

[wilebill]

The smilies really set it off.

[zorro]

Zorro, what's your point?
Read 3rd paragraph in initial post in this thread.

[aaron]

Well you've quoted a few early Christians here, but not every single one of them. How do you know they were all against it?

[Conveyor Belt]

Zorro, what's your point?

zorro was put here to entertain me.

[CircusRide]

State of MS leg. voted to ban abortion.

[LipsofanAngel]

well, I'm not quite sure the feedback/ type of posts that Zorro is wanting as a response...

all I know is that yeah, I can SAY that abortion is wrong and is not something that Christians support...

but, I must also say- that no one ever knows what they will actually do until they are IN that situation.

[zorro]

How do you know they were all against it?
Well, of course, I don't.

OTOH, every statement that I can find from a notable early Christian that spoke on this issue has been uniform.

[aaron]

Well, of course, I don't.

Then how can you say that anyone is ignorant, when you don't have all the facts yourself?

[zorro]

Then how can you say that anyone is ignorant, when you don't have all the facts yourself?
Weak argument. Only the infinite God of the Universe knows all the facts.

[Astra]

Weak argument. Only the infinite God of the Universe knows all the facts.
Talk about weak arguments.

[aaron]

Weak argument. Only the infinite God of the Universe knows all the facts.

I will agree with that, that's why I try to refrain from using the word ignorant.

[zorro]

The Didache (also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) dates from the first half of the second century.

Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion. -- The Didache 2:2

The Way of Death is filled with people who are...murderers of children and abortionists of God's creatures. -- The Didache 5:1-2

[XC9]

I know as a Catholic that we are to NOT believe in abortions. I go by this code of conduct but I also wonder at times if it is fairer to bring an unwanted child into this world. Unwanted children are abused by these parents in terrible ways. When I hear about an abused child, I have to admit the statement "why didn't you abort" has come to my mind. It breaks my heart to see or hear about abused children.

[zorro]

I will agree with that, that's why I try to refrain from using the word ignorant.
If your argument is that we are all ignorant of some things on any subject, then I would be inclined to agree.

In fact, it is precisely this reason that only Christianity has a valid epistemolgy when it comes to knowledge of right and wrong, good and bad, and the major areas of truth and falsehood. Since we are all finite and don't know everything, then it is possible that something that we don't know to disprove what we think that we know. The only possible way to have certainty is to either be infinite in our knowledge or to know someone who is omniscient and who cannot lie. If this infinite being, therefore, has revealed truth to us, then we can have absolutely true certain truth, though it is not exhaustive. We are creatures and will always be finite, and therfore, our knowledge will never be exhaustive.

[aaron]

Yeah, so you have no grounds to call anyone ignorant. The entire point of the post has been disproved by yourself since you agree your knowledge is finite. Thanks for stopping by.

[SoMissTV]

Yeah, so you have no grounds to call anyone ignorant. The entire point of the post has been disproved by yourself since your knowledge is finite. Thanks for stopping by.

SCORE!!!

Zorro was PWNED!

[XC9]

But also.I must add that there are people who can't have kids that,given the chance would raise and love these unwanted kids.
My wife and I lost a child so I'm kinda biased.
Sorry for the interruption.

I completely understand what you are saying. It is just that these type of people would rather abuse the child then to adopt them out. It would thrill me if all ladies would be great parents, or give the adoption idea a thought if they can't be. The ones who do this abuse to children never give them up-the state will finally take them away, but not until there is substantial abuse done. There was no need for an apology, your comments are welcome.

[zorro]

Yeah, so you have no grounds to call anyone ignorant. The entire point of the post has been disproved by yourself since you agree your knowledge is finite. Thanks for stopping by.
Wrong! In fact I've already proved what I set out to prove. Here exactly is what I said:

Regarding abortion, I've heard people say that the early church, or that the early Christians, did not object to the practice of abortion. This merely reveals ignorance on this subject by the ones who say it. Below are just a few examples showing early Christianity's view towards abortion.

Now, it is clear from what has already been posted that early Christianity objected to the practice of abortions. This proves that the statements that I sometimes hear that the early Christians didn't oppose it are incorrect and were made on the basis of ignorance of statements from early Christians as have been posted on this thread. The only other explanation is that they knew these statements and were just being dishonest. Thus, the word "ignorance" doesn't have to be taken as an insult; it can just be factual.

[LipsofanAngel]

Every child is wanted and loved...by God.

but what if the child is not wanted by a parent? is that fair?


**just playing devil's advocate tonight**

[Hermione]

Then how can you say that anyone is ignorant, when you don't have all the facts yourself?

This argument is specious and false, and all the triumph that follows it is likewise false. No one has "all" the facts about anything. You are saying that a person is ignorant unless he knows EVERYTHING. Zorro has presented a representative sample of the Fathers of the Church, who pretty accurately describe the mind of the Early Church on this subject. It's not necessary to quote EVERY Christian writer of the time in order to make the point that the Early Church condemned abortion.
Please don't confuse the issue of whether we believe in abortion today vs. whether Zorro has accurately described Christian thinking of the first millennium. Those are two separate issues and should be dealt with separately.

[CircusRide]

If your argument is that we are all ignorant of some things on any subject, then I would be inclined to agree.

In fact, it is precisely this reason that only Christianity has a valid epistemolgy when it comes to knowledge of right and wrong, good and bad, and the major areas of truth and falsehood. Since we are all finite and don't know everything, then it is possible that something that we don't know to disprove what we think that we know. The only possible way to have certainty is to either be infinite in our knowledge or to know someone who is omniscient and who cannot lie. If this infinite being, therefore, has revealed truth to us, then we can have absolutely true certain truth, though it is not exhaustive. We are creatures and will always be finite, and therfore, our knowledge will never be exhaustive.

I don't think Zorro claims to know everything but that God is all knowing. We're all ignorant in light of his infinite knowledge, so the use of "ignorant" when describing human beings is accurate as a comparison.
His posts are examples of Zorro's knowledge, regardless of how limited they maybe. I've yet to see anyone else post their knowledge of an opposing view. So, as knowledge goes, it would seem that Zorro has provided more than anyone else within this thread.

[aaron]

Wrong! In fact I've already proved what I set out to prove. Here exactly is what I said:

Now, it is clear from what has already been posted that early Christianity objected to the practice of abortions. This proves that the statements that I sometimes hear that the early Christians didn't oppose it are incorrect and were made on the basis of ignorance of statements from early Christians as have been posted on this thread. The only other explanation is that they knew these statements and were just being dishonest. Thus, the word "ignorance" doesn't have to be taken as an insult; it can just be factual.

So, the people that you posted represent the entire early Christian church? Could I quote Warren Jeffs for a representation of how Mormons feel? Could I quote George Bush for a representation of how all Republicans feel? Your quoting a few people's opinion's spanning hundreds of years for an early church stance when the term "early church" could cover hundreds of years itself and tens of denominations.

I just don't understand using the word ignorant when this was thousands of years ago in a time period that we have little writing on and what records we do have, they had to be translated by people into today's language by people who didn't live in that time.

[zorro]

So, the people that you posted represent the entire early Christian church?
Read Hermione's post above.

[aaron]

Who made these statements?

[zorro]

Who made these statements?
That information was provided with each statement.

[aaron]

No, who made the statements about the "early Church".

[Hermione]

Plus, there weren't tens of denominations. There was pretty much the one, except for some heretical groups like the Gnostics. The writers Zorro cites are generally recognized as the "Fathers of the Church" and their writings are the basis of most of our doctrine (I know our doctrine ultimately comes from the Bible, but the Fathers expounded on many ideas introduced in the Bible. For instance, St. Augustine of Hippo is generally regarded as the person who developed the notion of Original Sin.)

Also, "ignorance" is not necessarily a negative term. I am ignorant of many things, but that does not make me an "ignorant" person.

[Hermione]

A final comment. Those who decry "liberal arts" should note that I am using my knowledge of history, rhetoric, philosophy and keyboarding -- no, wait, how did that get in there? -- anyway, all that stuff I learned in college, to have a reasoned discussion with other educated people. Now I'm going to bed. Goodnight, and thanks for the interesting conversation.

[LipsofanAngel]

I don't remember getting my fairness guarantee when I was born. Maybe my mom lost it.

Do you put yourself in the place of God to make decisions regarding fairness and human life?

**just returning in kind** :)


I asked the question b/c I am indeed strong enough in my faith to know right from wrong... is it really so bad to ask the tough "what would you do?" questions? Since no one is perfect, we obviously ALL make mistakes... is it so wrong to actually consider which mistakes you would ever be capable of making? Maybe in doing so, you'd prevent yourself from disobeying God by thinking ahead and preparing.

and no, I do not play God and judge right or wrong based on fairness only... myabe "fair" was a bad word... how about "regardless of the fact that God may love the child, is it best for the child to grow up in an earthly home when it is unloved/unwanted by its mother?"

[aaron]

It indicates lack of knowledge on the subject, which zorro has admitted himself. So how is he different from the people making the statements? That's my question. Are these people present so they can even back up their statements? Links to articles would be ok.

Maybe it's just me, I just don't understand creating a post about early Christianity and abortion, posting a statement made by some unnamed person, then posting several statements from other people backing up your opinion, and the point of all of this not to strengthen yours or anyone else's stance on abortion, but is to disprove this nameless person that isn't on this forum that made these statements.

[wilebill]

It seems obvious to me that since all the writers Zorro quoted above were Christians, and they felt the need to write about the evils of abortion, that there was quite a bit of aborting going on, or else there wouldn't be a need to preach about it. And also the way it was written, it was being directed towards Christians who were having abortions, not towards the Pagans who Christians usually blew off as not knowing any better.

What's not so obvious is whether or not there was a lot of it going on, since the times are so spread out, but that may just be due to the fact that not a lot of old documents survived.

In any case, the very fact that these people felt the need to keep repeating the evils of abortion over the millennium seems to point out that abortions amongst Christians has been going on for a long, long time. And also that no matter who tries what that it won't be going away any time soon.

[zorro]

Maybe it's just me, I just don't understand creating a post about early Christianity and abortion, posting a statement made by some unnamed person, then posting several statements from other people backing up your opinion, and the point of all of this not to strengthen yours or anyone else's stance on abortion, but is to disprove this nameless person that isn't on this forum that made these statements.
aaron, I have heard both professing Christians and non-Christians say this about early Christianity for years. In fact, I seem to hear something like this almost every January when we have the anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision. I felt that there were perhaps some here that have also been taught this inaccuracy, and thus, I have started this thread for them. I also started it for others here who oppose abortion, in order to show them that they stand in a long line of Christian opposition to this practice and to provide them with these references. Another reason is show that from the earliest days of the church, it was clear that people knew that human life began at conception. We pretend we don't know this, or that if we know it, it must be only in the last few decades because of modern science. This is simply not the case.

[XC9]

That opinion, while valid to most using human reason, really leaves no room for the sovereignty of Almighty God nor the promise of Romans 8:28.

It breaks my heart to see abused children as well and I spent a good portion of my professional career (while I was in the profession) working to take children out of these environments and putting the abusers where they belong - jail. But I cannot put myself in the place of God and start entertaining the issue if it is right to bring an unwanted child into the world. Every child is wanted and loved...by God.

I understand each living being is loved by God, but God didn't give people children to abuse. He expects each child to be loved greatly by the parents also. When I speak of this subject I just begin to question why God put them on this earth to be tortured when they can't fight back. OH! The mysteries we can only wonder about but never understand.

[Conveyor Belt]

I understand each living being is loved by God, but God didn't give people children to abuse. He expects each child to be loved greatly by the parents also. When I speak of this subject I just begin to question why God put them on this earth to be tortured when they can't fight back. OH! The mysteries we can only wonder about but never understand.

this is one of the many, many reasons i dont believe in a personal savior.

[zorro]

this is one of the many, many reasons i dont believe in a personal savior.
Actually, the fact of evil in the world substantiates the claims of Christianity regarding the sinfulness and depravity of fallen man, and therefore, enforces the real need of a Savior. Man is unable to save himself from his sinfulness and the consequences thereof.

[Conveyor Belt]

Actually, the fact of evil in the world substantiates the claims of Christianity regarding the sinfulness and depravity of fallen man, and therefore, enforces the real need of a Savior. Man is unable to save himself from his sinfulness and the consequences thereof.

And who created evil?

I'm not convinced there is a thing as 'evil'.

[zorro]

I'm not convinced there is a thing as 'evil'.
Obviously a false statement.

If somebody raped your wife and cut her up, or if the same happened to your child (or even worse), you would be singing a different tune.

Many more examples, some quite graphic, could be imagined that would convince you of "evil" in the twinkling of an eye. I'm convinced that you really don't believe the above statement.

[dollfus46]

Obviously a false statement.

If somebody raped your wife and cut her up, or if the same happened to your child (or even worse), you would be singing a different tune.

Many more examples, some quite graphic, could be imagined that would convince you of "evil" in the twinkling of an eye. I'm convinced that you really don't believe the above statement.

That or his definition of "evil" is distinctly different from mine. Hitler was evil. Saddam was evil. Jeffrey Dahmer was evil.

[EricStratton]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Many insightful arguments on both sides. Abortion is an issue that I have never really been able to wrap my mind around because of the complexities of each individual situation.

I've always posed this question to those who are staunchly Pro-Life: Do you believe in the death penalty? If yes, how do you disassociate the rationale that "we are not capable of playing God" in the case of abortion from the same act of ending the life of a criminal?

[zorro]

I've always posed this question to those who are staunchly Pro-Life: Do you believe in the death penalty? If yes, how do you disassociate the rationale that "we are not capable of playing God" in the case of abortion from the same act of ending the life of a criminal?
Eric, I think that I addressed this in a couple of posts on the "Wilcher Executed" thread found here: http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13008

[kevin]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Many insightful arguments on both sides. Abortion is an issue that I have never really been able to wrap my mind around because of the complexities of each individual situation.

I've always posed this question to those who are staunchly Pro-Life: Do you believe in the death penalty? If yes, how do you disassociate the rationale that "we are not capable of playing God" in the case of abortion from the same act of ending the life of a criminal?

The rationale would be the Unborn Child of whatever stage is a perfectly Innocent creature Imho of God.A Convicted,proven killer is a creature of God yet we Have To use our GOD given ablities to keep Order in a Civilizied society by Providing Justice that may not be right but we aren't God and we can't stop a killer before he kills.He made the decision and he must be punished.Right or Wrong ???? This is just my own personal opinion nothing more.

[EricStratton]

Eric, I think that I addressed this in a couple of posts on the "Wilcher Executed" thread found here: http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13008

Z,

We all see the world and the Bible through different spectacles. I read a few of your post from the thread, and I think you only strengthened my point. I don't think state sanctioned murder is much more honorable than cold-blooded murder.

My problem doesn't entirely lie with the idea of the death penalty. My problem lies more with the administration of the death penalty sentence, especially in Mississippi. Why are some convicted murderers allowed to live, while others are sentenced to die? Are we not allowing our state to play God in this system?

Also, look at the faces of death row in MS. You will see that we have placed a higher value on the death of a white person than that of a darker person.

I'm not saying that those who commit the most heinous of acts should not be punished accordingly. But, our system for administering such "justice" is severly flawed and unjust.

I am for a moratorium on the death penalty in America, until we can the system right.

[zorro]

Z,

We all see the world and the Bible through different spectacles. I read a few of your post from the thread, and I think you only strengthened my point. I don't think state sanctioned murder is much more honorable than cold-blooded murder.

My problem doesn't entirely lie with the idea of the death penalty. My problem lies more with the administration of the death penalty sentence, especially in Mississippi. Why are some convicted murderers allowed to live, while others are sentenced to die? Are we not allowing our state to play God in this system?

I think you are referring to this post when you state the above:

In Exodus 20, one of the 10 commandments (the 6th one) is translated in the KJV as "Thou shalt not kill". However, the more accurate translation is "You shall not murder" (as rendered in many other translations including the NAS, NIV, ESV, and even the NKJV). Now, murder involves the taking or killing of innocent human life. The "right to life" crowd correctly recognizes that human life begins at conception, and thus, this life is innocent, and therefore, abortion is the deliberate killing of innocent human life. The "right to life" crowd is united in being against the killing of innocent human life. OTOH, there are crimes where a person is no longer innocent, and for The State to administer just punishment, capital punishment is what is just. The "right to life" crowd is not against justice.

The key here is that those who are convicted of a crime deserving the death penalty should definitely be truly guilty of the crime for which they are condemned. Otherwise, their execution is unjust. DNA evidence today has helped free some who have been wrongfully convicted and who were on death row; it has also aided in convicting others who were truly guilty. I just finished reading John Grisham's first nonfiction book titled The Innocent Man which is about a case such as this, and I highly recommend it.

If you will notice, there is absolutely nowhere that I condone state sanctioned murder. Capitol punishment for those truly deserving the death penalty isn't murder, but justice.

BTW, I did do a book review on The Innocent Man which is in the Reviews Forum.<!-- / message --><!-- #### SHOW REPUTATION GIVEN IN POST START - BY LEVI THORNTON #### --><!-- #### SHOW REPUTATION GIVEN IN POST END - BY LEVI THORNTON #### --><!-- sig -->

[zorro]

Z,
I'm not saying that those who commit the most heinous of acts should not be punished accordingly.
And if one of these most heinous crimes involves someone that you love more than all than the rest of the world, and if a person is found to be guilty of this crime beyond all reasonable doubt, I really don't think that you'll be against his capital punishment no matter what his skin color, race, social class, religion, sex, etc. Heck, you'll be volunteering to do the job yourself.

[EricStratton]

I think you are referring to this post when you state the above:



If you will notice, there is absolutely nowhere that I condone state sanctioned murder. Capitol punishment for those truly deserving the death penalty isn't murder, but justice.

BTW, I did do a book review on The Innocent Man which is in the Reviews Forum.<!-- / message --><!-- #### SHOW REPUTATION GIVEN IN POST START - BY LEVI THORNTON #### --><!-- #### SHOW REPUTATION GIVEN IN POST END - BY LEVI THORNTON #### --><!-- sig -->

"That which we call a Rose, by any other name would smell as sweet."
Billy Shakespeare

You can use the term "justice" to justify the actions of the state, but the results are the same no matter what it's called.

[EricStratton]

And if one of these most heinous crimes involves someone that you love more than all than the rest of the world, and if a person is found to be guilty of this crime beyond all reasonable doubt, I really don't think that you'll be against his capital punishment no matter what his skin color, race, social class, religion, sex, etc. Heck, you'll be volunteering to do the job yourself.

If a member of the family were allowed to kill the offender, I would be much more inclined to support the death penalty. It would make more sense than our current system.

[EricStratton]

And if one of these most heinous crimes involves someone that you love more than all than the rest of the world, and if a person is found to be guilty of this crime beyond all reasonable doubt, I really don't think that you'll be against his capital punishment no matter what his skin color, race, social class, religion, sex, etc. Heck, you'll be volunteering to do the job yourself.

I wasn't talking about the color of the offender. I was referring to the color of the victims. Check this out for yourself. There are cold, hard statistics supporting this claim. This is not a leftist conspiracy theory.

[Conveyor Belt]

Obviously a false statement.

If somebody raped your wife and cut her up, or if the same happened to your child (or even worse), you would be singing a different tune.

Many more examples, some quite graphic, could be imagined that would convince you of "evil" in the twinkling of an eye. I'm convinced that you really don't believe the above statement.

Obviously, it's not a false statement. I am NOT convinced there is a such thing as evil. You always attempt to KNOW what I'll do in any situation. Just because someone does something henious, doesn't mean it's the all encompassing 'evil'. When I talk about 'evil', I mean a force of evil. I'm not convinced that there are forces for good or evil.

If someone messed with my family, then I'd hope that I'd have the patience to plan out their demise so it wouldn't be linked to me. If I say the things I've said, imagine the things I keep inside...

[zorro]

I am NOT convinced there is a such thing as evil. . . . If I say the things I've said, imagine the things I keep inside...
Another proof of "evil".

BUT, does evil recognize evil as evil? Did Hitler ever acknowledge or recognize his deeds as evil? What about Jeffrey Dahmer? I think that this was dollfus' point above when he proposed that your definition of "evil" was distinctly different from his. It is definitely different from mine. It is different from that of the scriptures. A redefinition of sin may result in self-deception, and may be satisfactory to others who have gone down a similar path, but it doesn't deceive others, nor will it deceive The Lord of Glory on the day of judgment.

[Conveyor Belt]

A redefinition of sin may result in self-deception, and may be satisfactory to others who have gone down a similar path, but it doesn't deceive others, nor will it deceive The Lord of Glory on the day of judgment.

*ROLL EYES*

whatever, man, whatever...

[zorro]

You can use the term "justice" to justify the actions of the state, but the results are the same no matter what it's called.
There is all the difference in the world in the state executing a criminal who is truly guilty of a heinous crime (e.g., 1st degree murder) beyond any reasonable doubt, and the cold blooded murder itself that was committed during the heinous crime.

[EricStratton]

There is all the difference in the world in the state executing a criminal who is truly guilty of a heinous crime (e.g., 1st degree murder) beyond any reasonable doubt, and the cold blooded murder itself that was committed during the heinous crime.

Okay.

Soooooo....Why aren't all murderers executed? Why are the killers of white victims executed at a much higher rate than those who kill black, brown, yellow, or red people?

[kevin]

Okay.

Soooooo....Why aren't all murderers executed? Why are the killers of white victims executed at a much higher rate than those who kill black, brown, yellow, or red people?

How did this get on the subject of race? I understand that justice continues to be less obtainable for some races as others.I know a guy I met that was convicted of Murdering a White man in the late 70's and 12 years later he found the real killer in prison with him got him to confess and the Govenor Pardoned this guy I know.He is Black and it would seem Murder rates are higher in Blacks.I think that with science today and with better Race relations and the opportunities for people of color that are around for advancement of the black race that society's justice is getting even.

[EricStratton]

How did this get on the subject of race? I understand that justice continues to be less obtainable for some races as others.I know a guy I met that was convicted of Murdering a White man in the late 70's and 12 years later he found the real killer in prison with him got him to confess and the Govenor Pardoned this guy I know.He is Black and it would seem Murder rates are higher in Blacks.I think that with science today and with better Race relations and the opportunities for people of color that are around for advancement of the black race that society's justice is getting even.

It's not all about race, but it is about consistency in the "handing out" of the death penalty.

However, if you want to see how it is about race, here is a nice, concise, colorful illustration:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

[zorro]

Eric, here were your 1st questions to which I responded:
I've always posed this question to those who are staunchly Pro-Life: Do you believe in the death penalty? If yes, how do you disassociate the rationale that "we are not capable of playing God" in the case of abortion from the same act of ending the life of a criminal?
And I think that those have been answered satisfactorily (if not on this thread, at least on the "Wilcher Executed" thread).

Your next questions below are a different matter altogether.

Soooooo....Why aren't all murderers executed? Why are the killers of white victims executed at a much higher rate than those who kill black, brown, yellow, or red people?
I don't even know if the above is true or not. I'd love 53NewYorker or some other lawyers to give us their opinion about this.

[EricStratton]

Eric, here were your 1st questions to which I responded:

And I think that those have been answered satisfactorily (if not on this thread, at least on the "Wilcher Executed" thread).

Your next questions below are a different matter altogether.

I don't even know if the above is true or not. I'd love 53NewYorker or some other lawyers to give us their opinion about this.

Well, it would take some critical thinking skills to see how the two questions relate to one another.

You don't need a lawyer to answer my last question, look at this link I posted for Kevin:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

And, I don't know what you mean by "satisfactorily", but I guess we can agree to disagree. I think you're wrong, you think I'm an idiot. We'll all have a chance to get our answers one day. I'm sure we'll all be surprised.

[zorro]

I think you're wrong, you think I'm an idot.
I don't think that you are an "idot". Heck, I don't even know what an "idot" is. :smt102

[EricStratton]

I don't think that you are an "idot". Heck, I don't even know what an "idot" is. :smt102

As you will see, I went back and edited my post...JUST FOR YOU!

[kevin]

I didn't see anything pertaining to how many convicted of killing the other race by number to match it with the number executed on the site eric?

[EricStratton]

I didn't see anything pertaining to how many convicted of killing the other race by number to match it with the number executed on the site eric?

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="15%" bgColor=#99ffff><B><BIG>RACE OF VICTIMS* SINCE 1976
</BIG></B></TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%"><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#ffff99>BLACK
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffff99>225
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffff99>14%
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top">HISPANIC
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>76
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>4.7%
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top bgColor=#ffff99>WHITE
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffff99>1263
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right bgColor=#ffff99>79.3%
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>OTHER
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>32
</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>2%
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SMALL>
</SMALL>*NOTE: Number of Victims refers to the victims in the underlying murder in cases where an execution has occurred since the restoration of the death penalty in 1976. There are more victims than executions because some cases involve more than one victim.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[LipsofanAngel]

according to the same site Eric, more whites are actually excecuted... am I missing your point then?

[EricStratton]

according to the same site Eric, more whites are actually excecuted... am I missing your point then?

Yes you are. I'm not talking about the convicts. I'm talking about the victims. Who kills most of the white victims? White dudes. Hence, more white dudes are executed.

[LipsofanAngel]

Yes you are. I'm not talking about the convicts. I'm talking about the victims. Who kills most of the white victims? White dudes. Hence, more white dudes are executed.

thanks. just curious- which is why I asked.

[EricStratton]

thanks. just curious- which is why I asked.

No problem. That's why I answered.

[LipsofanAngel]

well here's the deal- you can't look at those stats in isolation. You have to look at the bigger picture if you're going to argue stats.... so, maybe white dudes are killing white dudes... and if a white guy is killed the murderer is more likely to be executed. Okay- well, now you also need to run find some stats on the total number of murders and their race... I don't feel like doing that, so I'll leave that fun for you- but, WHAT IF there are just more whites killed than any other race. And since you have assumed it's white on white crime, Well, yeah- then it makes perfect sense that more murderers of whites would be the ones executed.

[LipsofanAngel]

and talk about gettin off topic! geesh. what does any of this have to do with early Christians and abortion?

[EricStratton]

well here's the deal- you can't look at those stats in isolation. You have to look at the bigger picture if you're going to argue stats.... so, maybe white dudes are killing white dudes... and if a white guy is killed the murderer is more likely to be executed. Okay- well, now you also need to run find some stats on the total number of murders and their race... I don't feel like doing that, so I'll leave that fun for you- but, WHAT IF there are just more whites killed than any other race. And since you have assumed it's white on white crime, Well, yeah- then it makes perfect sense that more murderers of whites would be the ones executed.

This is not an "isolated" fact. It's ridiculous to even imagine that more whites are killed than blacks. Do you watch the news? Do you read a newspaper every now and then? Also, look at the demographics of our prison population. Then, look at the demographics of our death row inmates. Not even close to being similar.

As for getting off topic, I apologize. I can't imagine any thread ever getting off course on here!

[EricStratton]

DAMN...Some of you people need to see a proctologist

[LipsofanAngel]

DAMN...Some of you people need to see a proctologist


k, we'll be sure to refer you to a good one after we go :)

[threekidspa]

k, we'll be sure to refer you to a good one after we go :)
well done! :smt038

[EricStratton]

Your so damn smart Lips! This I know because I read your resume earlier. Guess that's why you're such a stats guru, too!

[EricStratton]

well done! :smt038

Haven't figured your role out Brent. I guess you're just on here to boost the egos of the MH elite.

[LipsofanAngel]

Your so damn smart Lips! This I know because I read your resume earlier. Guess that's why you're such a stats guru, too!

aww thanks hun :) I'll pretend to ignore your hint of sarcasm and take that as a compliment.

and on this note, off to buy some wine. be back soon for some more *fun* ;)

[amanda]

DAMN...Some of you people need to see a proctologist


Speaking of proctologist - what exactly has crawled up your butt today, Eric? You've been on a war-path with everyone all day. Any particular reason you would like to share with the group?

[EricStratton]

Speaking of proctologist - what exactly has crawled up your butt today, Eric? You've been on a war-path with everyone all day. Any particular reason you would like to share with the group?

I'm cursed with the inability to ignore "ignorance".

[amanda]

I'm cursed with the inability to ignore "ignorance".


So everyone today has been ignorant in your honest opinion?

[EricStratton]

So everyone today has been ignorant in your honest opinion?

Have I lashed out against "everyone"? Lips, Brent, and Zorro?

Have I dropped a negative rep on anybody?

[aether]

Have I lashed out against "everyone"? Lips, Brent, and Zorro?



you forgot me..please add me to the list...:)

[EricStratton]

you forgot me..please add me to the list...:)

You're on a completely different list. Carrying that cross and wishing we would all turn a blind eye to inequality, puts you in a different category.

[LipsofanAngel]

Have I lashed out against "everyone"? Lips, Brent, and Zorro?

Have I dropped a negative rep on anybody?

lovely- so remind again how I'M ignorant when all I did was suggest you find more stats to further clarify your point. Educate me dear friend- how does that equal ignorance?

[LipsofanAngel]

You're on a completely different list. Carrying that cross and wishing we would all turn a blind eye to inequality, puts you in a different category.


wow! ladies and gentlemen... welcome to the board..... *drum roll please*... GOD! Thanks for joining us and blessing us with your ability to be all knowing and the ultimate "judge" as well.

and yes, I did quote you in a response that was for someone else.

[aether]

You're on a completely different list. Carrying that cross and wishing we would all turn a blind eye to inequality, puts you in a different category.
...and what group would that be...

[amanda]

Have I lashed out against "everyone"? Lips, Brent, and Zorro?

Have I dropped a negative rep on anybody?

I think you've been on a very high-horse today with the majority of people today. That's all.

[zorro]

Have I lashed out against "everyone"? Lips, Brent, and Zorro?
I'm just glad that we're not "idots". :)

[threekidspa]

Haven't figured your role out Brent. I guess you're just on here to boost the egos of the MH elite.

No real role here. I come for the conversation. It used to be such that there could be a debate here where even if you disagreed, you could still be cordial, if not friendly. By your examples today, you don't seem to have mastered that skill.

[zorro]

you forgot me..please add me to the list...:)
aether, welcome to MH. As you can see, we're all real friendly here and we bend over backwards to get along with one another.

BTW, I like your avatar.

:smt006

[MSQueen]

Speaking of proctologist - what exactly has crawled up your butt today, Eric? You've been on a war-path with everyone all day. Any particular reason you would like to share with the group?

amandah, it's not just today. he was on the thread yesterday about the Petal explosives and was dishing it out until the moderator gave him a warning. i don't understand... :smt102

[53NewYorker]

Originally Posted by EricStratton
Soooooo....Why aren't all murderers executed? Why are the killers of white victims executed at a much higher rate than those who kill black, brown, yellow, or red people?
I don't even know if the above is true or not. I'd love 53NewYorker or some other lawyers to give us their opinion about this.

Thanks for the invite, Z. Discussing this would be really OT for this thread, so I'll pass. If there is a thread started addressing this issue, I might weigh in.

[amanda]

amandah, it's not just today. he was on the thread yesterday about the Petal explosives and was dishing it out until the moderator gave him a warning. i don't understand... :smt102


MSQueen, that's why I posed the question to him - but really didn't get an answer. Just seems that anyone is in his sights and just wondered if there was something we could do to help him get his head out of a_s! Glad I wasn't the only one noticing the problem, though.

[EricStratton]

I now understand why so many people are for abortion and the death penalty.

[LipsofanAngel]

I now understand why so many people are for abortion and the death penalty.
and why is that oh wise one?

[zorro]

Thanks for the invite, Z. Discussing this would be really OT for this thread, so I'll pass.
Being OT for this thread is the norm. :)