Religion, anyway you want it...

[Baloo]

I have been reading a lot of threads with posts that have religious references and inevitably someone decides to get their undies in a bunch and start a rant and ruin a perfectly good thread... So, I have decided to start a thread where anyone may post anything they want to about religion... Church group news or events, beliefs, questions for others, prayer requests or whatever... I just ask that you not "bash" anyone else's belief. Ask all of the questions you want, disagree if you want, but please do not post negative comments about another religion.

For starters, I believe in God the Eternal Father and in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost...

[Sam14]

i have a question. what exactly is lent? im not religious at all, but i wanna know what everyone is talking about on that "what are you giving up for lent" thread. Thanks!

[B.T. Justice]

i have a question. what exactly is lent? im not religious at all, but i wanna know what everyone is talking about on that "what are you giving up for lent" thread. Thanks!
A season of preparation for Easter.

[carsalesguy]

Lent is the 40 days, not counting Sundays from ash wednesday and Holy
Saturday.

per Wikipedia:

The forty day period is symbolic of the forty days spent by both Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses) and Elijah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_%28prophet%29) in the wilderness; in the story of Noah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah), God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) makes it rain for forty days and forty nights (they were in the ark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark) for much longer); the Hebrew people wandered forty years traveling to the Promised Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_Land). Jonah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah) in his prophecy of judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment) gave the city of Nineveh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineveh) forty days' grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace) in which to repent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repent). Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) is said to have retreated into the wilderness and fasted during forty days of temptation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation) to prepare for his ministry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry).
The Lenten period of forty days owes its origin to the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word quadragesima, signifying forty hours. This referred to the forty hours of total fast which preceded the Easter celebration in the early Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity).<sup id="_ref-0" class="reference">[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent#_note-0)</sup> The main ceremony was the baptizing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptizing) of the initiates on Easter Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Eve). The fast was in preparation to receive this sacrament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament). Later, the period from Good Friday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday) until Easter Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Day) was extended to six days, to correspond with the six weeks of training, necessary to instruct the converts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion) who were to be baptized.
Initially the word simply meant spring, and later became associated with the fast. The English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) word lent derives from the Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) root for Spring (specifically Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language) lencten; also the Anglo-Saxon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon) name for March - lenct (as the main part of Lent, before Easter, usually occurred in March).
A strict schedule was adhered to in the teaching of the converts. In Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem) near the close of the fourth century, classes were held throughout seven weeks of Lent for three hours each day. With the imposition of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) as the state religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion) of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) during this century, its character was endangered by the great influx of new members. To combat this hazard, the Lenten fast and practices of self-renunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imitation_of_Christ_%28book%29) were required of all Christians. The less zealous of the converts were thus brought more securely into the Christian fold.

[Baloo]

Sam14, I will have to do some consulting on that one. I know that it has Catholic origins and I know what some of the traditions are, but not all of them, so I don't want to speak out of turn on the subject... Any Catholics out there who can help us clear this up?

[Baloo]

Thanks BT and carguy... You guys are a lot quicker than I am... Thanks for the info. I am grateful for your replys!

[Mr. Bama]

For starters, I believe in God the Eternal Father and in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost...

I believe the same, though I believe they don't act in our lives. I guess you could call me a Christian Deist.

[iheartellisons]

Carsalesguy just about sums it up - it is how we prepare for the death and resurrection of Jesus....the "giving up of something" symbolized what Jesus did in the desert for 40 days - he resisted temptation and therefore we are taught to find a temptation and resist it.....or add something to our lives to better it. in past lenten seasons i have given up things i really enjoy or have made a vow to either be nicer to someone, read the Bible more, or things like that. its a cleansing experience in my opinion.

[Baloo]

Could you explain a little further on the "they don't act in our lives" part Mr. Bama? You lost me there... Not trying to be critical, just curious...

[Baloo]

Thanks iheart. I also believe in fasting and praying and it is very humbling.

[Sam14]

ps. im Agnostic and I like learning about all religions.

[Mr. Bama]

Could you explain a little further on the "they don't act in our lives" part Mr. Bama? You lost me there... Not trying to be critical, just curious...

I believe that God does not meddle in human affairs. I personally believe that he started us on a path and then let us go, kinda like training a kid on a bicycle. You help them for a little while and then you just let them go. I believe all miracles can be explained by science. But then again I believe God created everything thus creating science and evolution.

[Baloo]

Thanks for the info Mr. Bama... I also believe that God granted us our free agency to do as we choose...

I also like learning about all religions Sam14, I think that it is interesting learning what other people in the world believe. I also believe that the world needs a greater understanding of one anothers beliefs so that they can all be respected.

[Baloo]

I've gotta run for now, but please keep posting on the subject!

[CircusRide]

If God is all powerful, would he not be all knowing? Which means he would already know what decisions you'll make prior to you making those decisions? Then, wouldn't life be predestined? Hmmm????

[aaron]

Here's what I would call a Southern view.

http://pics.obra.se/1170191653865.jpg

[Hermione]

Aaron, if that's a Southern view, then why is it in an Alaska paper? It's an ignorant view, and ignorance knows no boundaries.

[Conveyor Belt]

Man, I see this thread taking a nose dive in the near future...

[chaz]

I believe that God does not meddle in human affairs. I personally believe that he started us on a path and then let us go, kinda like training a kid on a bicycle. You help them for a little while and then you just let them go. I believe all miracles can be explained by science. But then again I believe God created everything thus creating science and evolution.

I heard a preacher on the radio once saying this, backed up by scripture. Prayin for intervention etc.
Can't remember his name, if anyone knows, fill me in.

[EricStratton]

If God doesn't intervene from time to time, then what/who is God? Why is he even worth believing in, if we don't believe in his power to intervene? I disagree with the whole laisezz faire theory of God. If God has just left us all here to figure this thing out for ourselves, then we are really screwed.

[dollfus46]

I believe the same, though I believe they don't act in our lives. I guess you could call me a Christian Deist.

Now that's an interesting thought, Bama. Who is "they". I don't believe God punishes us on earth. Cancer, AIDS, car wrecks, are not of His doing. But I do believe He answers prayer and guides us if we are open to Him.

[dollfus46]

i have a question. what exactly is lent? im not religious at all, but i wanna know what everyone is talking about on that "what are you giving up for lent" thread. Thanks!

Hermione is my "go to gal" for the complicated questions/answers. She'll be along directly.:)

[dollfus46]

Carsalesguy just about sums it up - it is how we prepare for the death and resurrection of Jesus....the "giving up of something" symbolized what Jesus did in the desert for 40 days - he resisted temptation and therefore we are taught to find a temptation and resist it.....or add something to our lives to better it. in past lenten seasons i have given up things i really enjoy or have made a vow to either be nicer to someone, read the Bible more, or things like that. its a cleansing experience in my opinion.

I'm thinking you don't have to be Catholic to get great benefit from this practice. Of course at my age, there isn't a lot left to give up, but I'll work on bettering myself or helping others in some particular way....lemme think about it. I have a couple of days left.

[dollfus46]

Thanks iheart. I also believe in fasting and praying and it is very humbling.

How long do you fast? Do you allow yourself some nurishment?

I believe that God does not meddle in human affairs. I personally believe that he started us on a path and then let us go, kinda like training a kid on a bicycle. You help them for a little while and then you just let them go. I believe all miracles can be explained by science. But then again I believe God created everything thus creating science and evolution.

Just finished Ann Coulter's book, Godless. She says that if (and she makes a strong case against it) evolution is true, God created it. Very interesting and funny book.

If God is all powerful, would he not be all knowing? Which means he would already know what decisions you'll make prior to you making those decisions? Then, wouldn't life be predestined? Hmmm????

The Presbyterians think so. They believe in predestination and pergutory. But I don't think knowing what you will do is predestination. He let's you make the decision. He does not make it for you.

Here's what I would call a Southern view.

http://pics.obra.se/1170191653865.jpg

You pull up one zealous crackhead and compare us all to them. That's highly narrow minded and unfair. I see no difference in you and Alice Shannon Soldotna. It also undermines the very guidelines set forth in Baloo's initial post. You have issues with Christians. I've seen it more than once before.

[Mojo Daddy-O]

Now that's an interesting thought, Bama. Who is "they". I don't believe God punishes us on earth. Cancer, AIDS, car wrecks, are not of His doing. But I do believe He answers prayer and guides us if we are open to Him.

This is an interesting concept. It is a hard subject for Mojo to fully grasp. Though God does not create evil, doesn't He ordain it? If not, then how can we assert that He is all-powerful? Mojo's head hurts.

[aaron]

You have issues with Christians. I've seen it more than once before.

Your correct about that.

[CircusRide]

"The Presbyterians think so. They believe in predestination and pergutory. But I don't think knowing what you will do is predestination. He let's you make the decision. He does not make it for you."


Correction.....Presbyterians do not believe in pergutory. At least none of the Presbyterian churches I've ever been associated with have.

Honestly, there's not much point in arguing about religion. As long as they're christian based, they basically just represent various means of worship while believing in the same basic ideal

[justme]

I believe that God does not meddle in human affairs. I personally believe that he started us on a path and then let us go, kinda like training a kid on a bicycle. You help them for a little while and then you just let them go. I believe all miracles can be explained by science. But then again I believe God created everything thus creating science and evolution.

you believe in predestination then? Like the idea that God has a plan for you? What about free will?

I was raised Presbyterian, and I generally believe in Predestination. I believe that my free will can get in the way or - or derail- God's plan. I have had terrible things happen in my life, and I honestly believe that I could not have made it through them without my belief that it is all part of God's plan for me and that they were instances where God was preparing me for something else.

[Augustus McRae]

God is love. Love is God!



I have been reading a lot of threads with posts that have religious references and inevitably someone decides to get their undies in a bunch and start a rant and ruin a perfectly good thread... So, I have decided to start a thread where anyone may post anything they want to about religion... Church group news or events, beliefs, questions for others, prayer requests or whatever... I just ask that you not "bash" anyone else's belief. Ask all of the questions you want, disagree if you want, but please do not post negative comments about another religion.

For starters, I believe in God the Eternal Father and in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost...

[Baloo]

Perfectly said Augustus!!!!

In answer to dollfus46's earlier question of how long do I fast? 24 hours...

I do believe that God watches over us constantly... that he knows us better than anyone... that we are on Earth to learn and to grow... that he gave us free agency to choose to do what we wish... the he does still perform miracles... that he cannot remove all pain and suffereing from the world or else we would never learn what happiness is.... that he has angels who attend people in their time of need, whether they realize or accept it or not... I do believe in good and evil... I do believe that the words of henry Wadworth Longfellow were true when he wrote "... the wrong shall fail, the right prevail, with Peace on Earth Good Will to Men." Although there may be times when it seems like it will not come to pass, I have faith that the Lord, in his due time, will make things right. Who is to judge who is wrong or right? The Lord and only him... Just a few more of my personal insights...

Thanks for continuing the posts. I do enjoy learning what other people believe and am comfortable enough with my own beliefs to not be offended by anyone's else's. I believe that through understand one another we can learn to more fully love and appreciate one another and help abolish some of the hate that comes from misunderstanding... That is my reason for this thread...

[Conveyor Belt]

I was raised Presbyterian, and I generally believe in Predestination.

My issue with predestination is this: What's the point? Generally, it is said that Earth life is a trial to see if we are worthy to spend eternity with God/Jesus. If we are predestined to go to one place or the other by God/Jesus, what's the point of life? And, if we can still make a decision, then we're not predestined.

[Augustus McRae]

CB, you hit a nerve with me, and I want to thank you! Your sentence says, "Generally, it is said that Earth life is a trial to see if we are worth to spend eternity with God/Jesus." Unfortunately, that IS the message sent out by the Christian church of today - or that's the one people hear the most. For the life of me, with my IQ admittedly hovering int he high double digits, I cannot find that message in the words, teachings, and life of Jesus NOR in God's messages, other than Jesus, to His people.

But we do get a mindset that we are to ACCEPT God and Jesus, then from that acceptance point forward until we draw our final breath - we are to furrow our brow, think serious and deep thoughts, and try to "be good enough" to "spend eternity" with God/Jesus. Do we wonder why so many people do NOT feel "led" to practice that kind of faith?




My issue with predestination is this: What's the point? Generally, it is said that Earth life is a trial to see if we are worthy to spend eternity with God/Jesus. If we are predestined to go to one place or the other by God/Jesus, what's the point of life? And, if we can still make a decision, then we're not predestined.

[Conveyor Belt]

I agree with Bama on the diest philosophy of God, in a way. My leanings turn me more toward Eastern religion, which also has a hands off God.

I cannot be convinced that a God who loves us as much as people says he does would allow things to happen to innocents the way that they do.

I don't believe in the Bible, because the bible was written by man. Man has a way of twisting things to suit his own purpose, God included. I believe that there was probably a man named Jesus who had a different philosophy about life and was pissed about how people were treating their religion, and he rubbed people the wrong way and was killed. I don't believe he was a diety.

I think the lessons of the Bible are good and that if you live your life according to most of them, then you'll have a good life. I don't agree with some of the harsher things in the Bible like stoning people for things that I consider trivial. However, most of the Bible's main lessons are echoed in other religions across he world that had no influence from the Biblical region, so I'm not sure if they are universal, innate lessons of life, or if at some time, God has appeared to each section of earth in a different manner.

I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible and other religious documents from different times and areas of the world. I think it's neat how they all basically say the same thing. Treat people how you'd want to be treated, be kind to the young and elderly and destitute. Help people and be ever grateful for the world you live in.

[Augustus McRae]

Thanks for your thoughts. I enjoyed very much reading this post. One of the most interesting things I have read recently is an interview with Jim Brown (old # 32 of the Cleveland Browns). Brown has been on a lifelong spiritual journey - exploring (as you indicate you have) many faiths and spiritual practices and bents. He's now over 70 years old. The interviewer asks Brown "what do you now believe" and here's what he said:

I believe this is one God. I believe there is one race of man. And I believe that the Golden Rule is the only way to live.

I enjoyed the honesty of your post!



I agree with Bama on the diest philosophy of God, in a way. My leanings turn me more toward Eastern religion, which also has a hands off God.

I cannot be convinced that a God who loves us as much as people says he does would allow things to happen to innocents the way that they do.

I don't believe in the Bible, because the bible was written by man. Man has a way of twisting things to suit his own purpose, God included. I believe that there was probably a man named Jesus who had a different philosophy about life and was pissed about how people were treating their religion, and he rubbed people the wrong way and was killed. I don't believe he was a diety.

I think the lessons of the Bible are good and that if you live your life according to most of them, then you'll have a good life. I don't agree with some of the harsher things in the Bible like stoning people for things that I consider trivial. However, most of the Bible's main lessons are echoed in other religions across he world that had no influence from the Biblical region, so I'm not sure if they are universal, innate lessons of life, or if at some time, God has appeared to each section of earth in a different manner.

I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible and other religious documents from different times and areas of the world. I think it's neat how they all basically say the same thing. Treat people how you'd want to be treated, be kind to the young and elderly and destitute. Help people and be ever grateful for the world you live in.

[dollfus46]

"The Presbyterians think so. They believe in predestination and pergutory. But I don't think knowing what you will do is predestination. He let's you make the decision. He does not make it for you."


Correction.....Presbyterians do not believe in pergutory. At least none of the Presbyterian churches I've ever been associated with have.

Honestly, there's not much point in arguing about religion. As long as they're christian based, they basically just represent various means of worship while believing in the same basic ideal

I had a Presbyterian tell me that was a tenent of theirs, so I just assumed she knew what she was talking about. I should have done the research myself, but that was long before computers of any kind!! Ha! Thanks for clearing that up for me, CR.

[dollfus46]

This is an interesting concept. It is a hard subject for Mojo to fully grasp. Though God does not create evil, doesn't He ordain it? If not, then how can we assert that He is all-powerful? Mojo's head hurts.

Good question, and one I'm not qualified to answer but let me give you my thoughts: Evil: Pain and suffering were nonexistent until Eve disobeyed God. She set forth the maladies in this world. I believe they are from the devil not God. Understand, the devil is a very formidable foe. God is the one who can cure the malady, and ease the pain and suffering.... I believe the devil is real and works very hard in our lives to turn us away from God, like those who ridicule Christians and try to create chinks in our faith. The devil WANTS you blame God for everything bad. I ono, maybe I answered your question and maybe I didn't. I'm not the religious scholar that some are and that can be an asset to me. Simple minds don't get cluttered with complicated stuff. HA! Debit left, Credit right. God is good. The devil is bad.

[Mojo Daddy-O]

CB, you hit a nerve with me, and I want to thank you! Your sentence says, "Generally, it is said that Earth life is a trial to see if we are worth to spend eternity with God/Jesus." Unfortunately, that IS the message sent out by the Christian church of today - or that's the one people hear the most. For the life of me, with my IQ admittedly hovering int he high double digits, I cannot find that message in the words, teachings, and life of Jesus NOR in God's messages, other than Jesus, to His people.

But we do get a mindset that we are to ACCEPT God and Jesus, then from that acceptance point forward until we draw our final breath - we are to furrow our brow, think serious and deep thoughts, and try to "be good enough" to "spend eternity" with God/Jesus. Do we wonder why so many people do NOT feel "led" to practice that kind of faith?


Hello.

I do not believe people are saved by works. I believe they are saved for works. A lot of folks spend a great deal of effort expending words and don't have the deeds to back it up. In this humble monkey's opinion.

Wait a minute. Can monkies be saved?

Will Davy Jones be in heaven?

[Mojo Daddy-O]

Good question, and one I'm not qualified to answer but let me give you my thoughts: Evil: Pain and suffering were nonexistent until Eve disobeyed God. She set forth the maladies in this world. I believe they are from the devil not God. Understand, the devil is a very formidable foe. God is the one who can cure the malady, and ease the pain and suffering.... I believe the devil is real and works very hard in our lives to turn us away from God, like those who ridicule Christians and try to create chinks in our faith. The devil WANTS you blame God for everything bad. I ono, maybe I answered your question and maybe I didn't. I'm not the religious scholar that some are and that can be an asset to me. Simple minds don't get cluttered with complicated stuff. HA! Debit left, Credit right. God is good. The devil is bad.

Hello. Thank you for your response. You gave me many things to consider.

I believe God also uses the evil of the devil and other people to accomplish His greater good.

[Augustus McRae]

Davey will be there and he'll "....be too busy singin' to put anybody doooooooown...."


Hello.

I do not believe people are saved by works. I believe they are saved for works. A lot of folks spend a great deal of effort expending words and don't have the deeds to back it up. In this humble monkey's opinion.

Wait a minute. Can monkies be saved?

Will Davy Jones be in heaven?

[dollfus46]

Perfectly said Augustus!!!!

In answer to dollfus46's earlier question of how long do I fast? 24 hours...

I do believe that God watches over us constantly... that he knows us better than anyone... that we are on Earth to learn and to grow... that he gave us free agency to choose to do what we wish... the he does still perform miracles... that he cannot remove all pain and suffereing from the world or else we would never learn what happiness is.... that he has angels who attend people in their time of need, whether they realize or accept it or not... I do believe in good and evil... I do believe that the words of henry Wadworth Longfellow were true when he wrote "... the wrong shall fail, the right prevail, with Peace on Earth Good Will to Men." Although there may be times when it seems like it will not come to pass, I have faith that the Lord, in his due time, will make things right. Who is to judge who is wrong or right? The Lord and only him... Just a few more of my personal insights...

Thanks for continuing the posts. I do enjoy learning what other people believe and am comfortable enough with my own beliefs to not be offended by anyone's else's. I believe that through understand one another we can learn to more fully love and appreciate one another and help abolish some of the hate that comes from misunderstanding... That is my reason for this thread...

Thank you for creating it. I'm using this much like a daily devotion. I'm learning and I'm having to think about what I really feel and believe as questions come up. I'm also realizing where my weaknesses are in understanding.

[Fish-Bait]

Hello.

I do not believe people are saved by works. I believe they are saved for works. A lot of folks spend a great deal of effort expending words and don't have the deeds to back it up. In this humble monkey's opinion.

Wait a minute. Can monkies be saved?

Will Davy Jones be in heaven?

Do you mean if you talk the talk you need to walk the walk?

[Baloo]

I agree with Bama on the diest philosophy of God, in a way. My leanings turn me more toward Eastern religion, which also has a hands off God.

I cannot be convinced that a God who loves us as much as people says he does would allow things to happen to innocents the way that they do.

I don't believe in the Bible, because the bible was written by man. Man has a way of twisting things to suit his own purpose, God included. I believe that there was probably a man named Jesus who had a different philosophy about life and was pissed about how people were treating their religion, and he rubbed people the wrong way and was killed. I don't believe he was a diety.

I think the lessons of the Bible are good and that if you live your life according to most of them, then you'll have a good life. I don't agree with some of the harsher things in the Bible like stoning people for things that I consider trivial. However, most of the Bible's main lessons are echoed in other religions across he world that had no influence from the Biblical region, so I'm not sure if they are universal, innate lessons of life, or if at some time, God has appeared to each section of earth in a different manner.

I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible and other religious documents from different times and areas of the world. I think it's neat how they all basically say the same thing. Treat people how you'd want to be treated, be kind to the young and elderly and destitute. Help people and be ever grateful for the world you live in.

CB, thanks for sharing... Although my beliefs are somewhat different, I do appreciate your post and am learning more all of the time. I find it very interesting and it just helps me understand other people's views. The world would be such a better place if everyone could learn the last paragraph of your post!

[Conveyor Belt]

I've got a question I'm going to throw out there... why did Jesus have to come to earth?

If God is all powerful, which is the premise I'm working on, then why did Jesus have to come. couldn't God have waved his magic wand and made it all better?

Also, in dealing with an all powerful God, why is the devil so powerful? Can't God just waive the devil away?

And finally, who created God? This is the one that has me running circles in my head all day long...

[Baloo]

Hello.

A lot of folks spend a great deal of effort expending words and don't have the deeds to back it up. In this humble monkey's opinion.


Sounds like you are one smart Monkey, Mojo!

[Mojo Daddy-O]

Do you mean if you talk the talk you need to walk the walk?

Yes, I think so. There are a lot of people out there yelling, literally yelling, "I'm a Christian" and then their behavior is so contrary to what I read in the teachings of Jesus Christ that sometimes I think I must be something other than a Christian. Then two things dawn on me. First, they're just giving the rest of the Christians a bad name and, second, I'm just a monkey...:)

[Augustus McRae]

I God, CB......



I've got a question I'm going to throw out there... why did Jesus have to come to earth?

If God is all powerful, which is the premise I'm working on, then why did Jesus have to come. couldn't God have waved his magic wand and made it all better?

Also, in dealing with an all powerful God, why is the devil so powerful? Can't God just waive the devil away?

And finally, who created God? This is the one that has me running circles in my head all day long...

[Mojo Daddy-O]

I've got a question I'm going to throw out there... why did Jesus have to come to earth?

If God is all powerful, which is the premise I'm working on, then why did Jesus have to come. couldn't God have waved his magic wand and made it all better?

Also, in dealing with an all powerful God, why is the devil so powerful? Can't God just waive the devil away?

And finally, who created God? This is the one that has me running circles in my head all day long...

Hello. I'd like to answer two of those three and I'll have to claim blissful ignorance on the third.

First, if love is worth finding, then there must be a price for it, in my opinion. If God waved His magic wand and we just all automatically were forgiven and inclined to Him, where's the love in that? Also, our sins have much deeper consequences, in my opinion, than many of us realize or care to admit. The literal sacrifice of Jesus' life and body is a grim reminder of the ugliness of human depravity. Again, in my opinion.

Second, the devil is powerful, no doubt, but he possess none of the attributes of God. He is intelligent, but not all-knowing. He is very highly organized and commands legions of faithful followers, but he is not omnipresent. The only omni-anything you can call him is omni-bad. :)

The Bible teaches that God was not created...He simply was. Now, do I understand this? Nope. I'm just completely clueless on that subject, so I'll just avoid conjecture altogether.

[Baloo]

Wow, CB, I think I'd have to write pages to fully answer all of those, but my quick answer is that is God waved his magic wand, none of would ever have learned anything... If Earth had remained in a paradisical state and the Garden of Eden had never changed, we never would have learned happiness because there was no suffering... we never would have known the difference... we would all just be wandering aimlessly without purpose...

[Baloo]

You said it wat better than I did Mojo-Daddy-O!!! Thanks!!

[Augustus McRae]

See what you "crunked" up, CB?

[EricStratton]

CB,

I understand your post on an intellectual level, and, as Gus mentioned, I respect your honesty and candor on the subject. I've been through phases in which I doubted the authority of the Scripture and the diety of Christ. I did this because, for a couple of years, I was surrounded by people who told me basically that I HAD to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible and I had to believe in, what zorro referred to as, these absolute truths. It frustrated me that, in a religion which was based on a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ, many people tried to tell me how MY relationship with MY God and MY savior should work. I was told of these beliefs I SHOULD have and these thoughts and feelings I SHOULD have. It was frustrating and it almost "did me in".

However, after growing up a bit (and I've still got a lot of growing to do!), I've developed a different outlook on my faith. I believe in a God, an all-knowing and supreme being, that loves his creation. I don't know why God lets bad things happen, but I will ask if I ever meet him/her. I don't believe, denotatively, in predestination. I do believe that each of us serves a unique purpose in this world that God has created. Don't really know what mine is yet, but I'm searching.

And, I believe that God is needed to take the focus off of ourselves. Maybe I'm just weak, but if I thought I had make it through life without the help of someone greater than me, I would run myself into the ground. The most recent "phase" I'm going through is trying to learn that God is not a genie in a bottle who makes MY wishes come true, but that God, in some form or fashion, has carved out a niche for me in this expansive world in which I am to serve others with a joyful heart.

There are many times, still, that I wish I had more answers. But, these days, I'm okay with not knowing everything. The only question I really seek an answer to anymore is "What am I supposed to be doing?". I haven't really gotten that answer yet because I'm probably not ready to hear it.

I don't know if any of this made any sense. Just one man's opinion, and, as much as I criticize some other folks' opinions on here, I really do respect each person's PERSONAL beliefs as they apply to his/her own faith.

[Augustus McRae]

Word up!


CB,

I understand your post on an intellectual level, and, as Gus mentioned, I respect your honesty and candor on the subject. I've been through phases in which I doubted the authority of the Scripture and the diety of Christ. I did this because, for a couple of years, I was surrounded by people who told me basically that I HAD to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible and I had to believe in, what zorro referred to as, these absolute truths. It frustrated me that, in a religion which was based on a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ, many people tried to tell me how MY relationship with MY God and MY savior should work. I was told of these beliefs I SHOULD have and these thoughts and feelings I SHOULD have. It was frustrating and it almost "did me in".

However, after growing up a bit (and I've still got a lot of growing to do!), I've developed a different outlook on my faith. I believe in a God, an all-knowing and supreme being, that loves his creation. I don't know why God lets bad things happen, but I will ask if I ever meet him/her. I don't believe, denotatively, in predestination. I do believe that each of us serves a unique purpose in this world that God has created. Don't really know what mine is yet, but I'm searching.

And, I believe that God is needed to take the focus off of ourselves. Maybe I'm just weak, but if I thought I had make it through life without the help of someone greater than me, I would run myself into the ground. The most recent "phase" I'm going through is trying to learn that God is not a genie in a bottle who makes MY wishes come true, but that God, in some form or fashion, has carved out a niche for me in this expansive world in which I am to serve others with a joyful heart.

There are many times, still, that I wish I had more answers. But, these days, I'm okay with not knowing everything. The only question I really seek an answer to anymore is "What am I supposed to be doing?". I haven't really gotten that answer yet because I'm probably not ready to hear it.

I don't know if any of this made any sense. Just one man's opinion, and, as much as I criticize some other folks' opinions on here, I really do respect each person's PERSONAL beliefs as they apply to his/her own faith.

[dollfus46]

My issue with predestination is this: What's the point? Generally, it is said that Earth life is a trial to see if we are worthy to spend eternity with God/Jesus. If we are predestined to go to one place or the other by God/Jesus, what's the point of life? And, if we can still make a decision, then we're not predestined.

Do you mean if you talk the talk you need to walk the walk?

No human can walk that walk. We can only try to walk it, knowing we will not be successful. "For by grace, are ye saved."

[aaron]

I've got a question I'm going to throw out there... why did Jesus have to come to earth?

If God is all powerful, which is the premise I'm working on, then why did Jesus have to come. couldn't God have waved his magic wand and made it all better?

Also, in dealing with an all powerful God, why is the devil so powerful? Can't God just waive the devil away?

And finally, who created God? This is the one that has me running circles in my head all day long...

My dad (who is a foreign missionary), explained it to me like this. God has rules that he set for himself. I'm thinking like self-control. Kind of makes sense since we are created in his image and we have to have self-control. So, if that's the case, then certain things have to be done in order for the fact that people sin to be wiped away. Jesus was the answer. Only a part of him dying on the Earth could accomplish this.

As far as the devil, see above on self-control. He was an angel that chose to fall from Heaven, and God didn't stop him.

Who created God? I don't know enough about other planes of existence to answer this one, so I don't think about it.

[EricStratton]

I've got a question I'm going to throw out there... why did Jesus have to come to earth?

If God is all powerful, which is the premise I'm working on, then why did Jesus have to come. couldn't God have waved his magic wand and made it all better?

Also, in dealing with an all powerful God, why is the devil so powerful? Can't God just waive the devil away?

And finally, who created God? This is the one that has me running circles in my head all day long...

Jesus represents God "in the flesh"....and, I believe, serves as an example of how we SHOULD live.

God probably could have waved his magic wand, but that would have made for a pretty boring movie! I don't know the answer to that one.

Many believe that evil (devil) is allowed to exist so that we may be more dependent on God. Also, without evil, is there such a thing as GOOD? Don't have a real definitive answer on this one either.

God created himself. I guess that's what makes him/her/it God! Formless and undefineable?

[threekidspa]

I don't see why this always becomes such a battle. I'm called to share His message, and I do that, but beyond that, its up to them to do whatever.

Its hard enough fighting the battles within. Life is full of temptation...its a full time job trying to keep the plank out of my own eye, or help my kids keep them out of theirs (to use a scripture someone else has already brought up on one of these threads).

While I fully admit to an oversensitivity to apparent hypocracy by others, I don't see that its up to me to engage in a battle of wits or wills over whether its right or wrong, or whether God is or isn't. I don't see how the argument serves His purpose, or demonstrates His love. :)

Peace!

[Fish-Bait]

Hello.

I do not believe people are saved by works. I believe they are saved for works. A lot of folks spend a great deal of effort expending words and don't have the deeds to back it up. In this humble monkey's opinion.

Wait a minute. Can monkies be saved?

Will Davy Jones be in heaven?
the first 2 sentences is what I am referring to when i said "walk the walk"

sort of do what you say you are going to. not just blow "HOT AIR"...

[Augustus McRae]

All due respect, BG, I think you got in late on the discussion.....this has really NOT been a "battle" - it's been a great discussion this morning. I intended to work ALL morning but could not leave it. No battle - read back and enjoy it.




I don't see why this always becomes such a battle. I'm called to share His message, and I do that, but beyond that, its up to them to do whatever.

Its hard enough fighting the battles within. Life is full of temptation...its a full time job trying to keep the plank out of my own eye, or help my kids keep them out of theirs (to use a scripture someone else has already brought up on one of these threads).

While I fully admit to an oversensitivity to apparent hypocracy by others, I don't see that its up to me to engage in a battle of wits or wills over whether its right or wrong, or whether God is or isn't. I don't see how the argument serves His purpose, or demonstrates His love. :)

Peace!

[Conveyor Belt]

CB,

I understand your post on an intellectual level, and, as Gus mentioned, I respect your honesty and candor on the subject. I've been through phases in which I doubted the authority of the Scripture and the diety of Christ. I did this because, for a couple of years, I was surrounded by people who told me basically that I HAD to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible and I had to believe in, what zorro referred to as, these absolute truths. It frustrated me that, in a religion which was based on a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ, many people tried to tell me how MY relationship with MY God and MY savior should work. I was told of these beliefs I SHOULD have and these thoughts and feelings I SHOULD have. It was frustrating and it almost "did me in".

However, after growing up a bit (and I've still got a lot of growing to do!), I've developed a different outlook on my faith. I believe in a God, an all-knowing and supreme being, that loves his creation. I don't know why God lets bad things happen, but I will ask if I ever meet him/her. I don't believe, denotatively, in predestination. I do believe that each of us serves a unique purpose in this world that God has created. Don't really know what mine is yet, but I'm searching.

And, I believe that God is needed to take the focus off of ourselves. Maybe I'm just weak, but if I thought I had make it through life without the help of someone greater than me, I would run myself into the ground. The most recent "phase" I'm going through is trying to learn that God is not a genie in a bottle who makes MY wishes come true, but that God, in some form or fashion, has carved out a niche for me in this expansive world in which I am to serve others with a joyful heart.

There are many times, still, that I wish I had more answers. But, these days, I'm okay with not knowing everything. The only question I really seek an answer to anymore is "What am I supposed to be doing?". I haven't really gotten that answer yet because I'm probably not ready to hear it.

I don't know if any of this made any sense. Just one man's opinion, and, as much as I criticize some other folks' opinions on here, I really do respect each person's PERSONAL beliefs as they apply to his/her own faith.

Note to Zorro, THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW YOU SHOULD SPEAK OF RELIGION WITH OTHERS!!!

I respect your views, I really do. Thanks for being honest and open.

I wish I could be okay with not knowing everything. I think that's my curse in life... well, one of them.

[EricStratton]

I don't see why this always becomes such a battle. I'm called to share His message, and I do that, but beyond that, its up to them to do whatever.

Its hard enough fighting the battles within. Life is full of temptation...its a full time job trying to keep the plank out of my own eye, or help my kids keep them out of theirs (to use a scripture someone else has already brought up on one of these threads).

While I fully admit to an oversensitivity to apparent hypocracy by others, I don't see that its up to me to engage in a battle of wits or wills over whether its right or wrong, or whether God is or isn't. I don't see how the argument serves His purpose, or demonstrates His love. :)

Peace!

Agreed, Brent. But, I also don't see any problem with admitting doubts and questions in regards to God and faith. I think much of the debating about these questions is futile, as you say. But, I think some of these debates can help a person, who wants it, develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of his/her own faith and the faith of others.

I'm not directing this at you, but the problem I mentioned earlier fits into this same category. One of the reasons I basically quit my faith for a period time was that I had people around me who made me feel stupid and evil because I questioned such things as the authority of Scripture and other tenants of some mainstream Chrisitian denominations.

[Conveyor Belt]

I don't see why this always becomes such a battle.

I think it becomes a battle, because in the back of the mind of the loudest proclaimer of God's word is the doubt that he's wrong. We all question God at some point in time. I think people make it a battle, in part, to try to reassure themselves that there is a purpose to the bad things that happen in life.

[EricStratton]

Note to Zorro, THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW YOU SHOULD SPEAK OF RELIGION WITH OTHERS!!!

I respect your views, I really do. Thanks for being honest and open.

I wish I could be okay with not knowing everything. I think that's my curse in life... well, one of them.

Believe me, I UNDERSTAND! Some days I just have to trick myself into being okay with not knowing. Some days, I'm really not okay with not knowing.

[Conveyor Belt]

One of the reasons I basically quit my faith for a period time was that I had people around me who made me feel stupid and evil because I questioned such things as the authority of Scripture and other tenants of some mainstream Chrisitian denominations.

Yeah, this is one of the things about religion that makes me wary. Anytime someone tells me I'm not to question something, red flags go up. We wouldn't put up with it from our government, or from the school that's teaching our children, but we'll accept it from the leaders of an institution to which we're entrusting our eternal soul?

I like a Christian who has questions and doubts because I think that's honest. Anyone who has no doubts about their religion is either drinking the koolaid or lying to themselves. I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel.

[Augustus McRae]

Cat Daddy, are you ever right about that! It took me 45+ years to accept and begin to deal with a personality/character trait I had (have) that fits what you are saying. In my desire to be "right" in situations, relationships, and discussions, I found myself getting "louder" and more demonstrative in my assertions about thsoe things when I was not quite sure of my position. If I was sure of something, I could assert it quietly. But in order to "win" when I was not sure, I had to intimidate my opponent or conversant to make sure I won - even if I was not dead flat sure. That make any sense? I think it is PRECISELY what you are saying about the apologetic arguments some of us mount about topics of faith and religion.



I think it becomes a battle, because in the back of the mind of the loudest proclaimer of God's word is the doubt that he's wrong. We all question God at some point in time. I think people make it a battle, in part, to try to reassure themselves that there is a purpose to the bad things that happen in life.

[Augustus McRae]

I read an article recently in a local publication by a "pretty fair country writer" in this area. The title of the article was "Aging Spiritually." One of the things he said was that, after much searching over the years, he realized that "....our spiritual journey really does not begin until we start to ask questions and admit our questions and doubts..." Ain't it the truth!




Yeah, this is one of the things about religion that makes me wary. Anytime someone tells me I'm not to question something, red flags go up. We wouldn't put up with it from our government, or from the school that's teaching our children, but we'll accept it from the leaders of an institution to which we're entrusting our eternal soul?

I like a Christian who has questions and doubts because I think that's honest. Anyone who has no doubts about their religion is either drinking the koolaid or lying to themselves. I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel.

[justme]

I don't believe in the Bible, because the bible was written by man. Man has a way of twisting things to suit his own purpose, God included. I believe that there was probably a man named Jesus who had a different philosophy about life and was pissed about how people were treating their religion, and he rubbed people the wrong way and was killed. I don't believe he was a diety.
......

I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible and other religious documents from different times and areas of the world. I think it's neat how they all basically say the same thing. Treat people how you'd want to be treated, be kind to the young and elderly and destitute. Help people and be ever grateful for the world you live in.

I do not believe that the accounts in the Bible are 100% accurate. I believe that it was written by a number of men to tell stories to others in a way that they could relate to and understand. I also think that the Koran and the other religious documents for other religions all follow this same pattern. I took a class and we discussed this I just can't remember it all now. But basically, all the religions have the same basic tenants. It is just in the delivery of the message.

That being said, I find it hard to go and say that we should try to convert all the non christians in the world to christians. I mean what religion are they- do they hold tenents that are good vs. evil, or do they tell the followers to go and kill in the name of that "god". Certainly those people hold the belief that they will benefit from the "hereafter" of whatever particular religion they are following.

[Fish-Bait]

thou Shall Not Lie...

story: Last Saturday Afternoon I Took My Oldest Son (almost 5 Yoa) On His First Squirrel Hunting Trip. As He And I Walked From Behind Our House (shotgun In Hand) And Approached My Pick-up, Two Men Dressed In Suits Were Walking Up My Driveway. When I Actually Caught Their Attention I Think They Had The Bejesums Scared Out Of Them!!

anyway The Younger Of The Two (which Had A Bunch Of Pamphlets With Jehova's Witness's Church Or Something On Them), Regained His Stature And Asked Me "sir, What Do You Think About A White Lie?" "do You Think Its Right Or Wrong?"

i Thought A Second And Then Told My Son To Get In The Truck, I Then Closed The Door And Looked The Young Man Right In The Eye And Said "you Tell Me. What Would You Do If Your Very Young Son Or Daughter Came In And Caught You And Your Wife In The Act Of Making Love? Would You Tell Them What You Were Really Doing, Or Would You Tell Them That You Were Wrestling??!!!"

i Think I Amused Myself So Much I Barely Heard The Message He Was Trying To Convey To Me. He Did Recite Some Scripture But Can Someone Fill Me In On The White Lie Part?

[Conveyor Belt]

i Think I Amused Myself So Much I Barely Heard The Message He Was Trying To Convey To Me. He Did Recite Some Scripture But Can Someone Fill Me In On The White Lie Part?





A 'white' lie is a lie told by a white person. It's one of those racist things that white people do to make 'white' things seem less dangerous than the other 'lie'.

[Fish-Bait]

A 'white' lie is a lie told by a white person. It's one of those racist things that white people do to make 'white' things seem less dangerous than the other 'lie'.


ROFLMAO:yourock:

[EricStratton]

A white lie is what Forest Gump did when he promoted those ping pong paddles that he really didn't use.

[58ford]

I am a pseudoagnosticsemieccumenicalnondenominational.

[Baloo]

You guys have me laughing so hard tears are streaming down my face!


:grouphug:

Hawkeye, you always know how to say things perfectly!!!

Thank you guys so much for posting on this thread... I really do find all of it very fascinating...

Being at work on an island in the arctic, I need all of the entertainment I can get! :smt023

Great posts, very thought provoking...

[Conveyor Belt]

Being at work on an island in the arctic, I need all of the entertainment I can get! :smt023

Don't worry, if AlGore's right, in a few months, that island will be a tropical paradise... Don't hold your breath, though...

[Baloo]

David O. McKay counseled: ' "The greatest battle
of life is fought within the silent chambers of your own soul.". . .
It is a good thing to sit down and commune with yourself, to come to an
understanding with yourself and decide in that silent moment what your duty is to your family, to your Church, to your country, and . . . to your
fellowmen' ...

[LipsofanAngel]

Yeah, this is one of the things about religion that makes me wary. Anytime someone tells me I'm not to question something, red flags go up. We wouldn't put up with it from our government, or from the school that's teaching our children, but we'll accept it from the leaders of an institution to which we're entrusting our eternal soul?

I like a Christian who has questions and doubts because I think that's honest. Anyone who has no doubts about their religion is either drinking the koolaid or lying to themselves. I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel.

I agree with what you're saying on this one. I know for me, I am a Christian... but I have done a lot of questioning. Especially during the hard times that arise in life. Why do bad things happen? Why does evil have to exist? etc...
I think that's the beauty of "faith" though... I know that I don't have all the answers, yet I still believe in a loving God. I'm far from being the Christian that I feel I need to be, and would even like to be. I've lived a life full of sin and still do. But I always know that my God loves me, accepts, and forgives me.
and that's just my take on it...

[dollfus46]

The Bible teaches that God was not created...He simply was. Now, do I understand this? Nope. I'm just completely clueless on that subject, so I'll just avoid conjecture altogether.

Nothing wrong with that answer, Mojo. All one has to do is look around and know, at least for Christians, that none of this happened by accident as evolutionists believe. I have faith that God just was. And he created it all. Just because it's beyond our comprehension, so is death, heaven etc. We live by faith on some things until we join Him Then it will be revealed to us. There is a reason it's called our "faith."

[dollfus46]

Believe me, I UNDERSTAND! Some days I just have to trick myself into being okay with not knowing. Some days, I'm really not okay with not knowing.

Interesting, Eric. I never realilzed until you mentioned it that I feel the same way sometimes. That's when it's good to have a "go to guru". Sometimes we don't think of picking up the phone and calling our minister. He's not just there on Sunday's you know.

[dollfus46]

CB,

I understand your post on an intellectual level, and, as Gus mentioned, I respect your honesty and candor on the subject. I've been through phases in which I doubted the authority of the Scripture and the diety of Christ. I did this because, for a couple of years, I was surrounded by people who told me basically that I HAD to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible and I had to believe in, what zorro referred to as, these absolute truths. It frustrated me that, in a religion which was based on a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ, many people tried to tell me how MY relationship with MY God and MY savior should work. I was told of these beliefs I SHOULD have and these thoughts and feelings I SHOULD have. It was frustrating and it almost "did me in".

However, after growing up a bit (and I've still got a lot of growing to do!), I've developed a different outlook on my faith. I believe in a God, an all-knowing and supreme being, that loves his creation. I don't know why God lets bad things happen, but I will ask if I ever meet him/her. I don't believe, denotatively, in predestination. I do believe that each of us serves a unique purpose in this world that God has created. Don't really know what mine is yet, but I'm searching.

And, I believe that God is needed to take the focus off of ourselves. Maybe I'm just weak, but if I thought I had make it through life without the help of someone greater than me, I would run myself into the ground. The most recent "phase" I'm going through is trying to learn that God is not a genie in a bottle who makes MY wishes come true, but that God, in some form or fashion, has carved out a niche for me in this expansive world in which I am to serve others with a joyful heart.

There are many times, still, that I wish I had more answers. But, these days, I'm okay with not knowing everything. The only question I really seek an answer to anymore is "What am I supposed to be doing?". I haven't really gotten that answer yet because I'm probably not ready to hear it.

I don't know if any of this made any sense. Just one man's opinion, and, as much as I criticize some other folks' opinions on here, I really do respect each person's PERSONAL beliefs as they apply to his/her own faith.

Wonderful post, Eric. None of us have all the answers. That's why we go go church, study the Bible and associate with other Christians. Our walk with God is a never ending one, and each step brings us closer to him and more knowledgable about Him and His plan for us individually. We spend years studying in school to prepare for the next 45 years.Why wouldn't one give just half that time to prepare for the rest of eternity? I ono, but most don't. Allow yourself to be human. God made it that way. You will have doubts, questions, pitfalls. Heck, if it was easy what would be gained?


While I fully admit to an oversensitivity to apparent hypocracy by others, I don't see that its up to me to engage in a battle of wits or wills over whether its right or wrong, or whether God is or isn't. I don't see how the argument serves His purpose, or demonstrates His love. :)


It's not up to you to engage hypocrites. Neither should you allow some hypocrite to derail you. God will deal with them. All you can do is be a shining light for Jesus. I hate to hear someone say they don't go to church because it's full of hypocrites. No it isn't. That's an excuse. Are they going to stay home from work? Bunch of hypocrites there too. How about the hypocrites at your child's ballgame. That going to keep you from going to your child's game?


Agreed, Brent. But, I also don't see any problem with admitting doubts and questions in regards to God and faith. I think much of the debating about these questions is futile, as you say. But, I think some of these debates can help a person, who wants it, develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of his/her own faith and the faith of others.

I'm not directing this at you, but the problem I mentioned earlier fits into this same category. One of the reasons I basically quit my faith for a period time was that I had people around me who made me feel stupid and evil because I questioned such things as the authority of Scripture and other tenants of some mainstream Chrisitian denominations.

They may be further along in their faith than you. Gotta start somewhere. Man, there's a bunch I don't know. I'm 61 and didn't know what Lent was. Presbyterians recognize Lent. We just don't give up something for it. I'm still learning and walking, walking and learning. I have a daily devotion and a study guide beside me so I know what the scripture means. Most of the time it's obvious, but it can be so much more too. Don't be embarrassed. Some people can jog 5 miles a day. I'd like to too. But I'm walking two miles so far because I haven't been at it long. Not going to quit just because a group of joggers passes me by. No two of us are at the same level I don't think. If you don't ask you won't learn. Just my opinion.

[Baloo]

I agree with all of that Dollfus46. I think that we could all learn so much from each other if we could learn to listen to meaning and not just skim over the words...

[Hermione]

Two books I highly, highly recommend:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey

[Augustus McRae]

Very good recommendations, Hermi! I've read both and got stuff from both. I'm going to tackle Abraham and History of God or just let Eric Stratton read them and write me a synopsis!

Two books I highly, highly recommend:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey

[EricStratton]

Interesting, Eric. I never realilzed until you mentioned it that I feel the same way sometimes. That's when it's good to have a "go to guru". Sometimes we don't think of picking up the phone and calling our minister. He's not just there on Sunday's you know.

Thanks, but I usually just call "my good friend".

[EricStratton]

Wonderful post, Eric. None of us have all the answers. That's why we go go church, study the Bible and associate with other Christians. Our walk with God is a never ending one, and each step brings us closer to him and more knowledgable about Him and His plan for us individually. We spend years studying in school to prepare for the next 45 years.Why wouldn't one give just half that time to prepare for the rest of eternity? I ono, but most don't. Allow yourself to be human. God made it that way. You will have doubts, questions, pitfalls. Heck, if it was easy what would be gained?



It's not up to you to engage hypocrites. Neither should you allow some hypocrite to derail you. God will deal with them. All you can do is be a shining light for Jesus. I hate to hear someone say they don't go to church because it's full of hypocrites. No it isn't. That's an excuse. Are they going to stay home from work? Bunch of hypocrites there too. How about the hypocrites at your child's ballgame. That going to keep you from going to your child's game?




They may be further along in their faith than you. Gotta start somewhere. Man, there's a bunch I don't know. I'm 61 and didn't know what Lent was. Presbyterians recognize Lent. We just don't give up something for it. I'm still learning and walking, walking and learning. I have a daily devotion and a study guide beside me so I know what the scripture means. Most of the time it's obvious, but it can be so much more too. Don't be embarrassed. Some people can jog 5 miles a day. I'd like to too. But I'm walking two miles so far because I haven't been at it long. Not going to quit just because a group of joggers passes me by. No two of us are at the same level I don't think. If you don't ask you won't learn. Just my opinion.

Thanks, D. I've grown up a lot since the time I mentioned in my earlier post (although I'm still learning everyday). Now, I am comfortable with the fact that it is MY relationship with God and not anyone else's. I now enjoy my unique relationship with God. When things are bad, I am comfortable locking myself away and just having it out with God, without any fear of lightning or damnation. I've learned to even let him have control of some things (of course, it should be everything!) in my life that I got tired of fighting and worrying about. And, I'm learning to look for and recognize the daily blessings that God provides that I have been blind to for so long.

You're right, this thing called life is a journey. I'm learning to enjoy the scenery without worrying about where this road is gonna end. It's hard to do that sometimes and hard to keep that perspective on a daily basis, but, like you said, if it were easy, it would be a pretty boring ride.

[Conveyor Belt]

TI've learned to even let him have control of some things (of course, it should be everything!)

yeah, I tried to let God have control of everything, but then I ran off the road and hit a fence... God may be a great creator, but he's an awful driver...

[Mojo Daddy-O]

There is so much information here...too much for a monkey's brain to process! I want to thank everyone for sharing their perspectives and experiences.

As I read this, I am reminded of my father dying when I was 15. He had helped lead me to the Lord when I was 13 and then just two years later he was dead.

I did not understand this. I did not believe that an all loving God could take my father from me. I had felt a call to ministry, but I yelled at God that I would never tell a single person about Him. I was angry with God and I was not afraid to tell people of my anger.

In fact, I became somewhat antagonistic toward the faith. I didn't actively seek confrontation, but if I were visited by Christian groups or churches, I'd fire questions like, "Can God lift a rock that He couldn't lift?" and the like.

Eventually, when I reached the end of my own ability and strength, I realized that for so long I was trying to apply human reason to an infinite God. I'm not going to post a forty page thesis on the subject, but I came to realize that as clever and logical as the human mind can seem, we are finite in our ability to reason. If we were not finite, then solving all of the problems of the world would take no effort at all.

As I reflect on my father's death, it is still tough for me to understand at times. I once heard an analogy that God's will is like an elaborate tapestry and we attempt to use our myopic vision to view this tapestry with our noses pressed to one section of the fabric. Its hard to see how your few threads interact and impact threads throughout the entire tapestry.

I like this analogy, but I find a potential flaw. To say that you can even see your own threads completely suggests that you could eventually know the entire tapestry if you simply spent the time to study thread by thread.

Though I think you can learn a tremendous amount about God through his Word and prayer, I still believe there are many, many things we simply will never know on this earth. Therefore, I find God's will to be more like the ocean. You can see it, touch it, interact with it, but you truly can't see its beginning or its end and if the more closely you examine it, the more wonderment you walk away with as you discovery how much more is there than the simply surface appearance would give.

So in the times when I do not understand, I ask Him more. When I still don't get it, I seek Him more. When that still doesn't get it done, then I knock and knock and knock. If that doesn't eventually give me some deeper understanding, then I rest in the fact that the secret things belong to God, so I choose to trust in Him and not rely on my own understanding. I'd like to point out that I said nothing about walking in ignorance. I can't stand blind faith arguments. I try my best to know God and His ways, but there are so many things that my simple mind just will never get.

Okay, now Mojo must lay down.

[Mojo Daddy-O]

Wow. I didn't realize how long that post was until I posted it.

I'm sorry.

[wilebill]

Thanks, but I usually just call "my good friend".Oh, you know Dale Beavers, too? :smt102

[EricStratton]

Oh, you know Dale Beavers, too? :smt102

No, I just have zorro read scripture to me until I fall into a coma.

[dollfus46]

Two books I highly, highly recommend:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey

Thank you, Hermione. I'll pick them up.

[dollfus46]

Thanks, D. I've grown up a lot since the time I mentioned in my earlier post (although I'm still learning everyday). Now, I am comfortable with the fact that it is MY relationship with God and not anyone else's. I now enjoy my unique relationship with God. When things are bad, I am comfortable locking myself away and just having it out with God, without any fear of lightning or damnation. I've learned to even let him have control of some things (of course, it should be everything!) in my life that I got tired of fighting and worrying about. And, I'm learning to look for and recognize the daily blessings that God provides that I have been blind to for so long.

You're right, this thing called life is a journey. I'm learning to enjoy the scenery without worrying about where this road is gonna end. It's hard to do that sometimes and hard to keep that perspective on a daily basis, but, like you said, if it were easy, it would be a pretty boring ride.

Sounds like I'm singing to the chorus. You have it under control.

[Conveyor Belt]

Sounds like I'm singing to the chorus.

is that kind of like preaching to the choir???

[jmack]

yeah, I tried to let God have control of everything, but then I ran off the road and hit a fence... God may be a great creator, but he's an awful driver...


I hate to break it to you, but it's gonna get worse.

[Augustus McRae]

'Is ol' boy is on to IT! Dang good post...thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Thanks, D. I've grown up a lot since the time I mentioned in my earlier post (although I'm still learning everyday). Now, I am comfortable with the fact that it is MY relationship with God and not anyone else's. I now enjoy my unique relationship with God. When things are bad, I am comfortable locking myself away and just having it out with God, without any fear of lightning or damnation. I've learned to even let him have control of some things (of course, it should be everything!) in my life that I got tired of fighting and worrying about. And, I'm learning to look for and recognize the daily blessings that God provides that I have been blind to for so long.

You're right, this thing called life is a journey. I'm learning to enjoy the scenery without worrying about where this road is gonna end. It's hard to do that sometimes and hard to keep that perspective on a daily basis, but, like you said, if it were easy, it would be a pretty boring ride.

[Baloo]

I do believe in and am grateful for the atonement...

Just thought that I would pass along a positive thought for the day!

"Is it possible to reclaim a life that through reckless abandon has
become so strewn with garbage that it appears that the person is
unforgivable? Or what about the one who is making an honest effort but has fallen back into sin so many times that he feels that there is no possible way to break the seemingly endless pattern? Or what about the person who has changed his life but just can't forgive himself? . . .
"The Atonement of Jesus Christ is available to each of us. His Atonement is infinite. It applies to everyone, even you. It can clean, reclaim, and
sanctify even you. That is what infinite means--total, complete,
all, forever. Boyd K. Packer has taught: 'There is no habit,
no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime
exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ" Shayne M. Bowen - Speaker

[Augustus McRae]

Thank you, my good friend! I believe it with ALL of me!



I do believe in and am grateful for the atonement...

Just thought that I would pass along a positive thought for the day!

"Is it possible to reclaim a life that through reckless abandon has
become so strewn with garbage that it appears that the person is
unforgivable? Or what about the one who is making an honest effort but has fallen back into sin so many times that he feels that there is no possible way to break the seemingly endless pattern? Or what about the person who has changed his life but just can't forgive himself? . . .
"The Atonement of Jesus Christ is available to each of us. His Atonement is infinite. It applies to everyone, even you. It can clean, reclaim, and
sanctify even you. That is what infinite means--total, complete,
all, forever. Boyd K. Packer has taught: 'There is no habit,
no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime
exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ" Shayne M. Bowen - Speaker

[Baloo]

Thanks Augustus!!!

[dollfus46]

I am a pseudoagnosticsemieccumenicalnondenominational.

Sheeeh. Sounds terminal. But you misspelled it. :) (Just kidding. How in the world would I know!)

David O. McKay counseled: ' "The greatest battle
of life is fought within the silent chambers of your own soul.". . .
It is a good thing to sit down and commune with yourself, to come to an
understanding with yourself and decide in that silent moment what your duty is to your family, to your Church, to your country, and . . . to your
fellowmen' ...

Important advice. I often talk to myself, it makes for lively repartee.


I agree with what you're saying on this one. I know for me, I am a Christian... but I have done a lot of questioning. Especially during the hard times that arise in life. Why do bad things happen? Why does evil have to exist? etc...
I think that's the beauty of "faith" though... I know that I don't have all the answers, yet I still believe in a loving God. I'm far from being the Christian that I feel I need to be, and would even like to be. I've lived a life full of sin and still do. But I always know that my God loves me, accepts, and forgives me.
and that's just my take on it...

Sounds like a typical Child of God to me, Angel. You're on solid footing.

is that kind of like preaching to the choir???

Kind of like, yes. Pretty close. Exactly in fact. I just enjoy screwing up quotes to see if somebody catches it.

[zorro]

Two books I highly, highly recommend:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey
I can't vouch for the Yancey book (as I've never read it), but Lewis' Mere Christianity is a modern classic.

Another even more modern classic that I highly recommend is Knowing God by J. I. Packer. I put a brief review of it in the Book Review section today.

The Message of Salvation by Philip G. Ryken is also an excellent book and it has also been reviewed in the Book Review section.

[dollfus46]

I think it becomes a battle, because in the back of the mind of the loudest proclaimer of God's word is the doubt that he's wrong. We all question God at some point in time. I think people make it a battle, in part, to try to reassure themselves that there is a purpose to the bad things that happen in life.

Oh yeah. I've literally shaken my fist at God and cursed Him twice in my life. When my father died and again when my best friend was returned to the mental hospital 5 times in one year suffering from Bipolar disorder. I'm human. But He was the only one I could blame at the time. Bad things happen because they just do. I think sometimes it's because He wants us closer to Him. I've seen it work.

[dollfus46]

Being at work on an island in the arctic, I need all of the entertainment I can get! :smt023



YOU ARE WHERE?!!