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Conveyor Belt
03-23-2007, 11:11 AM
Last night, I was trying in vain to convince people that 'fishes' was proper grammar, although less used than 'fish'. It got me searching around trying to find articles to forward to them to show them the proper use of 'fishes' and somehow I stumbled upon my old high school friend, The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. This was the grammar bible in my high school AP English classes.

Anyhow, there's a full online version available (http://www.bartleby.com/141/), and I was reading through the common misused expressions, and came upon this:

# Factor. A hackneyed word; the expressions of which it forms part can usually be replaced by something more direct and idiomatic.


His superior training was the great factor in his winning the match.(no)
He won the match by being better trained.(yes)
Heavy artillery is becoming an increasingly important factor in deciding battles.(no)
Heavy artillery is playing a larger and larger part in deciding battles.(yes)

# Feature. Another hackneyed word; like factor it usually adds nothing to the sentence in which it occurs.

A feature of the entertainment especially worthy of mention was the singing of Miss A. (Better use the same number of words to tell what Miss A. sang, or if the programme has already been given, to tell something of how she sang.)

As a verb, in the advertising sense of offer as a special attraction, to be avoided.

I was thinking about how much the word 'factor' is used in textbooks and 'feature' is used to describe things people are selling.

Elements of Style was penned around 1918. I wonder if it's outdated now, or we're just becoming lazy and ignorant, or if it's a combination of both.

I don't use proper grammar on here just because this is so informal. I think I hit most points, but this is more conversational, and I write it out that way... but as for newspapers and magazines, textbooks and pamplets, I think it would be nice if they at least attempted to use grammar according to Strunk and White.

fuzzis
03-23-2007, 11:21 AM
The problem is that there are four kinds of grammars...Grammar 1, which is the formal arrangement of words in patterns; Grammar 2, descriptive analysis; Grammar 3, rules of correctness; and Grammar 4, school grammar (these according to Hartwell). Grammars 2, 3, & 4 don't always mesh although you'd think that they would.

fuzzis

Conveyor Belt
03-23-2007, 11:34 AM
wow, fuzzis...

you just took this to a ho'... nubbah... lebbah....

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58ford
03-23-2007, 02:42 PM
I thought that "fishes" was archaic but correct if no other part of the sentence indicates that there are more than one fish present.
Such as: "I have fishes." would be correct, but "I have many fishes." is incorrect.

wilebill
03-23-2007, 03:13 PM
I thought that "fishes" was archaic but correct if no other part of the sentence indicates that there are more than one fish present.
Such as: "I have fishes." would be correct, but "I have many fishes." is incorrect.So, "he fishes several times a week" would be wrong?

58ford
03-23-2007, 03:21 PM
I should have specified noun instead of verb.
Now, I'm going to sulk.

cubby 1
03-23-2007, 03:26 PM
So, "he fishes several times a week" would be wrong?
That was nice.

c1

Hermione
03-23-2007, 04:45 PM
Strunk & White are on my list of saints. "White" is E.B. White, the famous author of Charlotte's Web, who was also a distinguished essayist. And, yes, it's been revised since 1918. Now I have to go find my copy.

ynotme297
03-23-2007, 07:19 PM
how bout "he served many fishes"

Hermione
03-23-2007, 07:44 PM
Or, The Parable of the Loaves and Fishes.

58ford
03-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Or, The Parable of the Loaves and Fishes.
So, Hermione, how close was I on usage?

Im assuming you fund your book.

Hermione
03-23-2007, 08:20 PM
I didn't find it yet, but I think you were right.