Where evolution is taught

[fuzzis]

You went there.

And it was awesome.

Another post deserving of rep.

fuzzis

[Valkhorn]

Sure it does. You espouse scientific facts and proof and such. Do you believe global warming is true?

Open another thread about that if you want to discuss it. This thread is about Evolution

... which I remind you, you haven't given me one scientific rebuttal against it.

[SoMissTV]

I have had more fun with this thread than any other in a long, long time.

[EricStratton]

It would take too long for the cows to evolve into hamburgers.

Man, that is so silly....they don't serve real cows.

[Conveyor Belt]

What's the point in all of this? I think the point is to show how much you know about whatever....

So, I'll contribute.

Herbie is a VW. He has 4 tires and is numbered 53. His racing stripes are Red White and Blue. He'll squirt oil on you. Now, where did Herbie come from? Did God create him, or did he evolve from a lesser form of car???

[Conveyor Belt]

Man, that is so silly....they don't serve real cows.

real cow meat AND real buns!!! none of those fake buns like the other burger places serve!!!

[EricStratton]

What's the point in all of this? I think the point is to show how much you know about whatever....

So, I'll contribute.

Herbie is a VW. He has 4 tires and is numbered 53. His racing stripes are Red White and Blue. He'll squirt oil on you. Now, where did Herbie come from? Did God create him, or did he evolve from a lesser form of car???

I believe he evolved from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

[Valkhorn]

Actually the thread was simply about where evolution is currently taught. You brought it off topic by talking about the validity (albeit layman's validity) of evolution. No it was Zorro who first brought it off topic - not I.

Need I remind you, if it is not valid, then tell us why. Yet you haven't given us a reason yet (nor Zorro) other than saying "Because I said so".

Since we're already off topic, then I ask you again, do you believe global warming is true?I will not answer that in this thread. Open another thread if you wish to discuss it.

[EricStratton]

real cow meat AND real buns!!! none of those fake buns like the other burger places serve!!!

I admire a man who stands up for his product. I have one down the street from me here on the coast.....Bumper's, right?

[Conveyor Belt]

Did Dick Van Dyke evolve into Lindsey Lohan?

No, Haley Mills evolved into Lohan... Dick Van Dyke evolved into Rosie Odonnell...

[EricStratton]

Did Dick Van Dyke evolve into Lindsey Lohan?

Hey...who knows what can be done with plastic surgery these days?

[zorro]

This just proves my point even more that the ONLY debate against Evolution is a religious one and not a scientific one.
One inaccurate statement after another.

Since you won't read anything by Christians, read the Denton book. No religious arguments given, and he still blows holes all through the theory of macroevolution.

[Conveyor Belt]

I admire a man who stands up for product. I have one down the street from me here on the coast.....Bumper's, right?

I'd stay away from those coast stores if I were you... I wouldn't eat at one... the one in Laurel is okay, but the only one I'd chance eating at on the coast in the one in Ocean Springs...

[Conveyor Belt]

Wait...isn't Rosie O'Donnell evolving into Donald Trump?

There you go, proving the theory of evolution...

[Valkhorn]

One inaccurate statement after another. Then show me why. You haven't shown your work yet.


Since you won't read anything by Christians, read the Denton book. Ken Miller is a Christian. What planet have you been on?

No religious arguments given, and he still blows holes all through the theory of macroevolution.

I refuted the Denton book in one of my posts. His arguments were religious.

Are you blind?

[EricStratton]

I'd stay away from those coast stores if I were you... I wouldn't eat at one... the one in Laurel is okay, but the only one I'd chance eating at on the coast in the one in Ocean Springs...

NOW YOU TELL ME!! I'm gonna evolve into a mad f-ing cow, now!

[SoMissTV]

Rosie might be devolving into Trump, though it's hard to tell.

[SoMissTV]

NOW YOU TELL ME!! I'm gonna evolve into a mad f-ing cow, now!

Who do you think's in the burgers?

http://www.barthsburgery.com/pix1/barthLogo3.jpg

[SoMissTV]

Perhaps...but can anyone answer the question of what exactly is evolving on top of Trump's head?

Chewbacca?

http://www.interwebernet.com/images/headlines/trump.jpg
http://blogs.venturacountystar.com/vcs/dennert/archives/Down-arrow.gif
http://kimskorner.zed1.net/albums/Answers/chewbacca.jpg

[Conveyor Belt]

NOW YOU TELL ME!! I'm gonna evolve into a mad f-ing cow, now!

I'm just giving you MY opinion of the situation... they're probably fine as long as you've got 10-15 minutes to kill in the drive thru... I swear, they used to get 800 calls about people waiting 45 minutes in line... there's no way in hell... of course, I've waited 30 minutes for Taco Bell in hattiesburg late at night, so I guess I can see it...

49's okay, but I'd stay away from Pass Road unless it was between 11:30am and 12:15pm, which is their lunch... other than that, you're rolling the dice...

[Valkhorn]

I quit.

Zorro, Aaron, or TheDoc have not YET posted a single refutation to what I have claimed other than saying 'I said so'.

You can read the thread if you wish. I offered sources. I backed up my statements. I refuted thoroughly almost every single post of theirs.

When asked to tell me why or for them to show their work, they never did. In fact they brought up old arguments again (like the Denton book) which had already been refuted by me in the thread.

I am more than willing to do a formal written debate, but as far as this thread goes it is over as far as I am concerned because I'm going to go back to posting in a community like christianforums.com where there are plenty of Theistic Evolutionists, Biologists, Geologists, and even Atheists there who all accept Evolution and like to discuss it.

All I have seen in this thread is blind assertion and when I try to get anyone to back up any one of their claims they never do. This is inexcusable.

I have been more than patient and more than willing to discuss this rationally, yet all I have been given were ad hominem attacks and blind assertions.

I was even accused of being the one who derailed the thread when it wasn't I who first called Evolution bunk in this thread.

TheDoc, Aaron, and Zorro only want a one sided debate where they can just pat themselves on the back. They aren't ready to back up their claims and they aren't willing to even consider facts that are in obvious opposition to their statements.

So unless you actually want to debate anything, or back up your sources, or come back with me on a much larger forum to debate Evolution (which I welcome you to do) I am not posting anymore in this thread.

I will only say 'show your work' so many times and when it's ignored it is worthless to debate.

For those on the sidelines - if their points were so solid, then how come they are so quick to say no but will never show you any sources, facts, or evidence?

Good day.

[SoMissTV]

Well, there are plenty of other threads on this forum. Feel free to jump in, or create your own!

[Conveyor Belt]

ES, if you go to the one on 49, ask if 'Doug' is there... look at the man and tell me he's not the spittin image of Capt'n Kangaroo...
http://www.tvparty.com/bgifs17/captain-color.jpg

I swear, that's him...

[zorro]

I refuted the Denton book in one of my posts. His arguments were religious.

Are you blind?
You didn't, but you may have thought so. His arguments were certainly not religious (which lets me know that you don't have a clue about the book).

And no, I'm not blind or self-deceived. I am sleepy though. Good night.

[EricStratton]

Valk,

I don't know what the deal is. I've never had problems with anybody on here.

[Conveyor Belt]

G'night all... thanks for the fun... my legs are burning from working out, so I'm going to go either lay down or go soak in a tub... or maybe do both... who knows???

[SoMissTV]

People are going to wake up tomorrow morning, look through this thread, and wonder, "wtf?"

[EricStratton]

tommorrow morning, nothing. I'm looking at it right now and saying "WTF?". We got christians, atheists, donald trump, and captain kangaroo all on one thread.

[aaron]

Well, I'm glad he's done. If he wasn't, I was about to be, because if someone doesn't go read the Bible and get a clear view of where Christians know they came from, then how can you debate them about where they came from? I can't believe someone is scared of reading the Bible because they think they will be converted. That's about as dumb as me saying I don't want to read On the Origin of Species because I might become an Atheist. A lot of the Bible is provable fact, so your missing out on the first parts of human history.

I'll also agree that Atheism is a religion. You put your faith in humans instead of a higher being. You think that humans can know and see everything. Humans that said the Earth was flat. Humans that drilled holes in people's heads to get sickness out, and humans that murder 33 people because a girl doesn't like you.

It's primitive to me to think that we have evolved into this over the past 200,000 years. It's primitive to me to think that out of the last 13 billion years of the universe's history, we're the best it could come up with. It gets even more insane when you ask science to explain how all the matter in the universe came from nothing.

I don't have all the answers. I don't think our five senses even comes close to knowing what is going on around us. Since I'm willing to admit that, it opens the gateway to believing that there is a higher power.

[Augustus McRae]

Now THAT is "self-deception" at its finest!

Valk,

I don't know what the deal is. I've never had problems with anybody on here.

[Augustus McRae]

ALL God's people - one evolving race!


tommorrow morning, nothing. I'm looking at it right now and saying "WTF?". We got christians, atheists, donald trump, and captain kangaroo all on one thread.

[Valkhorn]

<hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> Now THAT is "self-deception" at its finest!Maybe you hold a different standard than I do when it comes to debate.

I like people to back up their claims and not do blind assertion after blind assertion.

Aaron, Zorro, TheDoc have had 13 pages to provide a reason why Evolution is scientifically invalid. They haven't done so yet.

The best they can do is say it's against their religion.

And that is hogwash because lots of Christians accept Evolution.

[Valkhorn]

Well, I'm glad he's done. If he wasn't, I was about to be, because if someone doesn't go read the Bible and get a clear view of where Christians know they came from, then how can you debate them about where they came from? I can't believe someone is scared of reading the Bible because they think they will be converted. That's about as dumb as me saying I don't want to read On the Origin of Species because I might become an Atheist. A lot of the Bible is provable fact, so your missing out on the first parts of human history. You are simply afraid. There are plenty of people who are both Christians and who accept Evolution - so what is the problem?

I'll also agree that Atheism is a religion. You put your faith in humans instead of a higher being.It is not a religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Also, I told you I read the Bible cover to cover in one of my posts.

I am dubious of someone who tells me to read something when they haven't read a single one of my posts.

You think that humans can know and see everything.I do not, but we can at least try to learn something instead of sitting on our fannies thinking some guy in the sky will do stuff for us.

Humans that said the Earth was flat. Humans that drilled holes in people's heads to get sickness out, and humans that murder 33 people because a girl doesn't like you. And Humans said that the Earth was at the center of the Universe. Humans said disease and sickness were caused by demons. Humans said there was a global flood. Humans also said the Earth was 6000 years old - and they got all that from a book which wasn't written by Darwin.

It's primitive to me to think that we have evolved into this over the past 200,000 years. Then how do you explain the fossil record?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2_big.jpg

How do you explain that? Some of those fossils go back more than 200,000 years.

It's primitive to me to think that out of the last 13 billion years of the universe's history, we're the best it could come up with. You seem to have a low opinion of the human race and human ingenuity.

It gets even more insane when you ask science to explain how all the matter in the universe came from nothing. They don't say it did. Plus the Big Bang has NOTHING to do with Evolution.

I don't have all the answers. I don't think our five senses even comes close to knowing what is going on around us. Yet you feel qualified to tell me you do know everything and that I'm wrong about Evolution and Atheism.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

If you don't know anything, then leave me alone about it already.

Since I'm willing to admit that, it opens the gateway to believing that there is a higher power.So in other words the argument boils down to this:

"If I don't know anything, it has to be God."

That is an illogical argument.

And by the way, if you have any scientific proof against Evolution, out with it - because we're on the 13th page and no one has provided any.

[aaron]

You read the Bible that quick? No? Ignore.

[Valkhorn]

You read the Bible that quick? No? Ignore.If you could actually read my posts I told you I read it a long time ago cover to cover.

Does reading comprehension fail you?

Funny how you can't begin to answer my valid points. Way to stick your head in the sand.

[Valkhorn]

Ignore.

This is why I quit earlier. You guys ignore valid points and keep making blind assertions and you fail to see why this is really not a wise thing to do.

Just like Aaron - so willing to ignore anything that disagrees with his narrow world-view. I told him many Christians accept Evolution, so why does he have a problem with it? If it was on scientific grounds, then why can't he post some sort of scientific defense?

Because the only reason he can't accept it is it is a threat to his religion somehow. And to me, that is really sad.

I accepted Evolution when I was a Christian, too. So why is it so wrong?

[amanda]

If we really did evolve from apes - why do they still exist?

[Augustus McRae]

I say, I say ..... Professor Foghorn Leghorn is back! I KNEW he could not stay away. It would be admitting that he is not as superior to the rest of us ignorant, sumbucks as he thought. He HAD to return of the scene. I'm tell you - somebody in the neighborhood needs to check his ass for handguns!

[fuzzis]

If we really did evolve from apes - why do they still exist?

I've never read anywhere that evolution says we evolved from apes. NEVER. That's one of those things that people who are against evolution toss out there as a red herring, but if you truly take a look at evolution theory, it's not there.

fuzzis

[Valkhorn]

I've never read anywhere that evolution says we evolved from apes. NEVER. That's one of those things that people who are against evolution toss out there as a red herring, but if you truly take a look at evolution theory, it's not there.

Exactly. It's like I say time and time again the people that are most against Evolution don't even know what it is :)

Evolution says that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

The same argument is like saying if Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans.

[Valkhorn]

I say, I say ..... Professor Foghorn Leghorn is back! I KNEW he could not stay away. It would be admitting that he is not as superior to the rest of us ignorant, sumbucks as he thought. He HAD to return of the scene. I'm tell you - somebody in the neighborhood needs to check his ass for handguns!

Instead of making ad hominem attacks, why don't you tell us why Evolution is wrong?

Remember it has to be a valid argument and not just "god says so".

[fuzzis]

Instead of making ad hominem attacks, why don't you tell us why Evolution is wrong?

Remember it has to be a valid argument and not just "god says so".

For those who believe, "god says so" is a perfectly valid argument, and there's no way to get around that. It's a fundamental part of their belief system, and that's OK.

My problem with creationism and ID is that it is not science and does not belong in a science course. If you want to teach creationism and ID, then let's have a that in a class that is not a *science* class. I'm all for that (and I'm a non-believing heathen), but don't try to make it something that it is not.

fuzzis

[Valkhorn]

For those who believe, "god says so" is a perfectly valid argument, and there's no way to get around that. It's a fundamental part of their belief system, and that's OK.

I don't think so. It may be fine for them but in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't explain anything.

My problem with creationism and ID is that it is not science and does not belong in a science course. If you want to teach creationism and ID, then let's have a that in a class that is not a *science* class. I'm all for that (and I'm a non-believing heathen), but don't try to make it something that it is not.

Agreed. Thank you.

[fuzzis]

I don't think so. It may be fine for them but in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't explain anything.


It doesn't explain things for you, but who are you to tell another person what does and doesn't work for them? It explains plenty for them, and I'm completely not threatened by that.

fuzzis

[Valkhorn]

It doesn't explain things for you, but who are you to tell another person what does and doesn't work for them?

Well it becomes different when they try to force it into science classes - which they try to do in many places.

It explains plenty for them, and I'm completely not threatened by that.

Maybe it's because it explains nothing to me and it gave me absolutely no comfort when I used to think that way. Maybe I just want to find out what makes that thought process tick - because I have never understood it.

[amanda]

I've never read anywhere that evolution says we evolved from apes. NEVER. That's one of those things that people who are against evolution toss out there as a red herring, but if you truly take a look at evolution theory, it's not there.

fuzzis


I know I'm not the only person on here who has seen the goofy chart of the ape evolving into a man. However, when time permits - I'll google it. I'm busy now - but I will get back to you on this.

[Valkhorn]

This is a better chart:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/%7Epeter/Resources/Climate_Evol/Hominid.Evol.jpg

[fuzzis]

I know I'm not the only person on here who has seen the goofy chart of the ape evolving into a man. However, when time permits - I'll google it. I'm busy now - but I will get back to you on this.

The goofy chart doesn't mean it came from evolution theory, so please be extremely careful with that. Evolution theory says that there was a common ancestor, which given the amount of similar genetic material, is true, but that is NOT the same thing as saying that man evolved FROM apes. If that were the case, it could just as easily be said that apes evolved FROM man...which we don't hear. Please see the second paragraph (http://www.answers.com/topic/evolution) under "Darwinism".

fuzzis

[Augustus McRae]

Instead of making ad hominem attacks, why don't you tell us why Evolution is wrong?

Remember it has to be a valid argument and not just "god says so".


If you will look back to my prior posts, you will see that I have NEVER said that "Evolution is wrong." Indeed, I do not think "evolution" by its REAL scientific definition IS wrong. I am a biologist by training, and I KNOW that REAL evolution is real.

Also, you have never read or heard me say on this thread or ANY other than something is true or not true because "God said so!" I have never heard God say a word!

This is NOT a debate about evolution. Such a "debate" would be a nonsense debate, in my opinion. I DO contend this: arguments FOR evolution do NOT refute the existence of a Supreme Being or of that Supreme Being's involvement in the initial creation of living things. I think the two - involvement in creation by a Supreme Being and REAL evolution - can, and do, sensibly co-exist.

But your interest here is, obviously, not in debating the evolution issue. Your issue here is, again obviously, in attempting to convince people of your intellectual prowess and your enlightenment. I shared with you earlier my own experience with the folks who are part of this MyH.com community. They are NOT the ignorant, small-minded, and shallow pawns of fundamentalism and "hocus-pocus" that you obviously think. They are not going to simply "bow" to your verbiage and quotes of "experts on evolution" and they will dang sure not accept intellectual "brow-beating."

You could have offered your thoughts on this issue in an appropriate manner, but you chose to be a condenscending horse's ass. I KNEW you could not stay away because you HAVE to win the "I'm the smartest dude" game.

That's no "ad hominem attack" (there you go again!). It's my opinion. I don't expect you to accept it. It's just good advice from an old man!

[Augustus McRae]

I've seen the chart you speak of many times. It is usually taught in the context of the "changes of man over the ages." It usually begins with a "ape like looking" man with a large forehead, lots of hair, and a stooped-over posture and gate. In texts of prior years (when I was a student!!), there was usually no mention of "evolution" with it. It was more of the "structural history of man." Man HAS evolved. Like that? I don't know. But why would that, I contend, be in any manner contradictory with the existense of God or God having a lead role in creation?




I know I'm not the only person on here who has seen the goofy chart of the ape evolving into a man. However, when time permits - I'll google it. I'm busy now - but I will get back to you on this.

[Valkhorn]

Ad hominem attacks seem perfectly fine for Valkhorn until he perceives one being launched at him.

I apologize for any that I have done - but why is it wrong for me to ask you to back up your claims?

[Valkhorn]

If you will look back to my prior posts, you will see that I have NEVER said that "Evolution is wrong." Indeed, I do not think "evolution" by its REAL scientific definition IS wrong. I am a biologist by training, and I KNOW that REAL evolution is real.

I stand corrected :) Thank you.

Also, you have never read or heard me say on this thread or ANY other than something is true or not true because "God said so!" I have never heard God say a word!

And I apologize for that if I misconstrued - which clearly I have.

This is NOT a debate about evolution. Such a "debate" would be a nonsense debate, in my opinion.

That's where we differ because I saw a few posts against Evolution before I came here and thought I would chime in.

I DO contend this: arguments FOR evolution do NOT refute the existence of a Supreme Being or of that Supreme Being's involvement in the initial creation of living things. I think the two - involvement in creation by a Supreme Being and REAL evolution - can, and do, sensibly co-exist.

Of course they don't. Welcome to the world of Theistic Evolution. :)

But your interest here is, obviously, not in debating the evolution issue. Your issue here is, again obviously, in attempting to convince people of your intellectual prowess and your enlightenment.

If I have given you that impression, I'm sorry. My intention was not of that but of promoting the scientific facts towards Evolution.

I shared with you earlier my own experience with the folks who are part of this MyH.com community. They are NOT the ignorant, small-minded, and shallow pawns of fundamentalism and "hocus-pocus" that you obviously think.

I never said that they were - and I apologize if I gave you that impression.

They are not going to simply "bow" to your verbiage and quotes of "experts on evolution" and they will dang sure not accept intellectual "brow-beating."

I do not feel that I am brow-beating them. I have asked them plenty of times for evidence to back up their claims and they simply refuse to show their work.

If I gave you that impression, I'm sorry.

You could have offered your thoughts on this issue in an appropriate manner, but you chose to be a condenscending horse's ass. I KNEW you could not stay away because you HAVE to win the "I'm the smartest dude" game.

That is clearly not my intention.

That's no "ad hominem attack" (there you go again!). It's my opinion. I don't expect you to accept it. It's just good advice from an old man!

I can see your side of things and I have addressed them earlier.

No hard feelings?

[Augustus McRae]

No hard feelings at all, Horn. Indeed, you will find these folks at MyH.com as "forgiving" as they are opinionated. no one has "tested" their metal as folks like me, Eric Stratton, Big John, and others! It's amazing the common ground the most fierce of "duelers" often find on here.

As someone said earlier, I do admire your spunk. I hope you'll continue to come with much to offer but with also much to learn.

No hard feelings at all - no one can be a bigger horse's ass than ME - but, hey, I'm good at it.

Inhale, exhale, move on...

Gus



I stand corrected :) Thank you.



And I apologize for that if I misconstrued - which clearly I have.



That's where we differ because I saw a few posts against Evolution before I came here and thought I would chime in.



Of course they don't. Welcome to the world of Theistic Evolution. :)



If I have given you that impression, I'm sorry. My intention was not of that but of promoting the scientific facts towards Evolution.



I never said that they were - and I apologize if I gave you that impression.



I do not feel that I am brow-beating them. I have asked them plenty of times for evidence to back up their claims and they simply refuse to show their work.

If I gave you that impression, I'm sorry.



That is clearly not my intention.



I can see your side of things and I have addressed them earlier.

No hard feelings?

[Valkhorn]

No hard feelings at all, Horn. Indeed, you will find these folks at MyH.com as "forgiving" as they are opinionated. no one has "tested" their metal as folks like me, Eric Stratton, Big John, and others! It's amazing the common ground the most fierce of "duelers" often find on here.

As someone said earlier, I do admire your spunk. I hope you'll continue to come with much to offer but with also much to learn.

No hard feelings at all - no one can be a bigger horse's ass than ME - but, hey, I'm good at it.

Inhale, exhale, move on...

Gus


Thanks have been noted. :)

[Valkhorn]

Wow, still no sign of actual evidence against Evolution. :)

[Buggy]

I already expect spin about how supernatural phenomeon cannot be measured in the scientific world, but it does happen...quite frequently in the world of psychology.
Wait, are you saying that psychology has found a way to study the supernatural? Not the sociology of religion or anything like that, but actual supernatural phenomena?

[Grengor]

You seem to have been a little overwhelmed at one point Valk, bit off more than you could chew?

[zorro]

. . . humans and apes share a common ancestor.

Actually, what you see here is that they share a common Maker or Creator. Only your presuppositions - your faith, your philosophy, your religion, your basic worldview commitment - keeps you admitting that this is the case.

[Valkhorn]

Actually there has been a tremendous amount of issues clearly stated here that you just choose to spin.Where? Give me one scientific fact. You haven't. The best you have offered is "god did it" and "it's so complex god had to do it".

What about my evidence? Did you at all read my links? Did you watch that video? Did you even understand it?

And what about tens of thousands of scientists who accept evolution, some of which are Christian?

How come it isn't possible to be both Christian and accept Evolution?

But let's try this on for size since you're such an evidence guy. Using a form of your own inquire, can you provide some evidence against the existence of God? I already expect spin about how supernatural phenomeon cannot be measured in the scientific world, but it does happen...quite frequently in the world of psychology.No. You can't go either way with that. You also can't prove there is a teapot orbiting between Mars and Earth, nor can you prove there is one until you find it. But nevertheless it's a silly assertion, now isn't it? You can't investigate every square inch of space for a teapot, but unless you find one it's very unlikely that there is one out there. (thanks to Bertrand Russell for that one)

So how about it Valk? What evidence do you have against the existence of God? That is besides the point. Save that for another thread if you want to ask me about my Atheism. Evolution has nothing to do with whether a god or gods exist or not.

So, it is irrelevant

There are people who make such claims. And this means they are right?

There is a journal called the Journal of Supernatural and Paranormal Psychology. I googled "Journal of Supernatural and Paranormal Psychology" and didn't find one. Nevertheless there is this:

http://www.randi.org/

Who offers 1 million dollars cash to anyone who can reproduce any paranormal or psychic or supernatural powers under controlled conditions. There have been many challengers, and no one has gotten the prize.

And, before you say it is rigged - each test is done under controlled conditions with a panel of scientific judges (sometimes even a paranormal 'expert') and in 30 years it hasn't been awarded yet.

I'm not saying that it's solid science,

It isn't.

but since Valk can't seem to articulately define what he considers evidence,

I already have. The fossil record is evidence. Radiometric dating is evidence. Genetics is evidence.

I've given you examples of each.

I guess anything that reports data meets his standards. So I thought I'd throw it out there.

No. It is any data that is verifiable and reaches a convergent result.

Stop putting words into my mouth.

[Valkhorn]

Actually, what you see here is that they share a common Maker or Creator. Only your presuppositions - your faith, your philosophy, your religion, your basic worldview commitment - keeps you admitting that this is the case.

This is bogus. The evidence is convergent - also Evolution has nothing to do with whether there is a god or not. The evidence also points to common ancestry.

Divine intervention is untestable and unprovable.

[Valkhorn]

The silence is deafening.This is because I spent my time in a real forum for a while and just now came back to this one.

I really am considering leaving this thread for good but that doesn't mean I concede. I am more than willing to debate this topic further but in a better arena so you are among people who also have evidence and won't let you slide by with blind assertions and bogus arguments. In fact I spoke to them last night (a few of the members) and they agreed they would love to have you over for a debate. You can post anything you wish, a thread if you'd like with your evidence, or in response to anything else. But you will find a much better debate there and I think you will be very surprised there to find how many Christians (and people of other faiths and of none) who accept Evolution and aren't afraid to do so. There are real biologists there. Real geneticists there. Real geologists. If you have real evidence I'm sure they would love to hear it.

I am willing to do a formal written debate with ANYONE on this forum (and even a public debate).

I am up for the challenge, how about you?

[DrkSdBls]

I just thought that, as a non-scientist and a Self-proclaimed Philosopher, I'd chime in on this. Even though I'm not a Scientist by Trade, I'd like to think myself Quite Intelligent and Fairly well Educated (Self-tought is some regards) so I'd say I'm fairly well versed in this topic.

Clearly, Valkhorn had met and exceded the requirement needed to support his position put forth by the Accepted Debate Community and is fully backed by the Scientific community in general. Even if what he said was incorrect, he met the Requirement to which to support his case. He had Presented Post after Post of Data and Sources which all supported his position very well which has went challanged in a creditable Fashion to this page.

To Zerro, and TheDoc, you, on the otherhand have not. You have both made serveral Claims as to your position yet have provided little or no scientific evidence or sources to back up your claims while what little you did post, Valkhorn had completely refuted within the boundries of the accepted Scientific and Debate Requirements. He has even went beyond what is required by Science to shred your arguements to peices.

Your rebuttels have been Empty and Lacking any substance, which either demonstrates that you lack the understanding of the subject matter or you just don't consider him to be worthy of your respect. What's more is that you have clearly shone that you have not even read much of his posts and have belittled and insulted that which you did not ignore.

If you Find fault in Valhorn's Arguements then, in order for your position to hold any merit and to be taken seriously, you must step up and meet Him on an equal level. You must challenge his Points with the same respect and be as informitive as he as been with you. You have not done this; not once! Just Posting "You are wrong" is Not a Rebuttal and it only make you look Close Minded and Arrogant.

If you don't have a stance on it, say so and be done with it.
If you disagree but can't support why, then just say you disagree and be done with it.
But just don't post a one sentance post that says "You're wrong and I'm proven it" and expect that no one will call you on it!

[amanda]

Ahhhhh.....look....Valkhorn brought a friend.

[EricStratton]

Mini-Valk: "Just the two of us....building castles in the sky....just the two of us....you and I."

[aaron]

I really am considering leaving this thread for good

http://www.myhattiesburg.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/dammedancing01.gif

[amanda]

On the lighter side - -

322

[Valkhorn]

In other words Aaron can do no better than to make fun at what he doesn't understand [Evolution].

How nice.

[EricStratton]

In other words Aaron can do no better than to make fun at what he doesn't understand [Evolution].

How nice.

No, I think he understands. He understands Van Dame evolved from a gay, Greco-Roman wrestler.

[aaron]

http://www.myhattiesburg.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/onionmagazine_1020_article.jpg

[Valkhorn]

Magazine Cover

You realize it's a Satire right? You do realize it's partially in response to people being afraid to learn science (like Evolution).

The Onion's a pretty good read, and they like to make fun of people like you so it's ironic that you posted that.

[amanda]

Aaron, in this instance I think the article entitled "The Five Valuable Lessons In Humility I Opt to Ignore, by Donald Trump" would fit more appropriately here.

[aaron]

You realize it's a Satire right? You do realize it's partially in response to people being afraid to learn science (like Evolution).

The Onion's a pretty good read, and they like to make fun of people like you so it's ironic that you posted that.

http://www.myhattiesburg.com/gallery/albums/uploaded/master_obvious.jpg

[Valkhorn]

[magazine cover]

So in other words, you refuse to have a real discussion about Evolution.

I knew you had no real argument :)

Thank you. Drive through

http://www.solidsender.com/dstrbo/news/creationism.gif

[aaron]

So in other words, you refuse to have a real discussion about Evolution.

I knew you had no real argument :)

Thank you. Drive through



http://www.myhattiesburg.com/gallery/albums/uploaded/last_week.jpg

[wilebill]

War of the graphics!!! It's on!!!!

[EricStratton]

I found a picture of Valk and his partner, DarkSide:

http://www.antville.org/img/swen/Hasselhoff.jpg

[amanda]

Val, you may notice - eventually - that we try to keep things on a lively and entertaining note around here and try to take ourselves too seriously. Something you may want to try. Laughter is great!

[amanda]

http://acsweb.fmarion.edu/Barbeau/evolution.joke.jpg

[EricStratton]

All in good fun, Valk. I'm not a hater. I've just been searching for a place to post this picture for some time now, and well....

[aaron]

http://www.myhattiesburg.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/hassle1.JPG

[EricStratton]

Okay, while we're at it:

http://home.new.rr.com/savedinfo/images/Hasselhoff-Homo.jpg

[amanda]

This thread is evolving even as we speak! :) For the better.

[aaron]

From Valk's perspective, it is de-evolving.

I've already mentioned a regression theory, he told me I simply didn't understand evolution.

[amanda]

Would this be considered part of the testing process to prove the theory? If so, I think you proved your theory, Aaron!

[EricStratton]

I've already mentioned a regression theory, he told me I simply didn't understand evolution.

I didn't believe in regression, until.....

http://mindtangle.net/wp-content/nick_nolte.jpg

[zorro]

I just thought that, as a non-scientist and a Self-proclaimed Philosopher, I'd chime in on this. Even though I'm not a Scientist by Trade, I'd like to think myself Quite Intelligent and Fairly well Educated (Self-tought is some regards) so I'd say I'm fairly well versed in this topic.
Are you an alias of Valkhorn?

[EricStratton]

Are you an alias of Valkhorn?

Watchu talkin' bout, Willis?

[zorro]

Watchu talkin' bout, Willis?
OK, I admit that I don't get it. Help me out.

[EricStratton]

OK, I admit that I don't get it. Help me out.

If you can wade through all of the gigantic photos of Hasselhoff and Co., you will see that Valkhorn and DarkSide's relationship has been discussed (using that term loosely) some already.

[zorro]

Basically, I was a little slow on the draw. :snail:

[Valkhorn]

Basically, I was a little slow on the draw.

Are you going to accept my challenge of a written formal debate or not?

Aaron was too chicken to do it, what about you?

[EricStratton]

That's what I'm talkin' bout, Valk. Shake them ape haters off and keep coming back!

[dream member]

It's making me so sad to read this thread (not that I understand HALF or MOST of it), but to see the anger it seems to be causing in people. Why so upset everyone, may I ask?

[Valkhorn]

It's making me so sad to read this thread (not that I understand HALF or MOST of it), but to see the anger it seems to be causing in people. Why so upset everyone, may I ask?

It's against their religion and that is the only valid argument they have.

[Valkhorn]

That's what I'm talkin' bout, Valk. Shake them ape haters off and keep coming back!

I've challenged both Aaron and Zorro (even by PM) to a formal written debate on the topic.

It's not my fault they are unable to rise to the challenge.

[Astra]

Valk, I get where you're coming from, but the thing is that this place isn't really used to your hardcore debate style. It's more of a general discussion forum and you're coming across as having barged in just to tell everyone how wrong they are.

I used to get really annoyed when people on campus would get in my face about how I needed to be "saved" or would shove icky tracts at me. I didn't like it when one of my favorite message blogs was attacked by people from another website and nearly rendered inoperable because they didn't agree with something he had to say. Those tactics seldom win sympathizers, instead they further lower people's view of you and your cause.

Don't sink to that level.

[Valkhorn]

Valk, I get where you're coming from, but the thing is that this place isn't really used to your hardcore debate style. It's more of a general discussion forum and you're coming across as having barged in just to tell everyone how wrong they are.

But that's just it, my intent is not to be abrasive - but with regards to Evolution it just grinds my gears when the only opposition there is is non-scientific or when the opposition comes from people who don't even understand it.

I used to get really annoyed when people on campus would get in my face about how I needed to be "saved" or would shove icky tracts at me. I didn't like it when one of my favorite message blogs was attacked by people from another website and nearly rendered inoperable because they didn't agree with something he had to say. Those tactics seldom win sympathizers, instead they further lower people's view of you and your cause.

Don't sink to that level.

That isn't my intent - but with matters like this (a scientific argument) the devil is in the details. Plus, why should I be the only person asked to back anything up? They ask me to do it all the time but when I ask it of them it falls on deaf ears.

[Valkhorn]

Valk, if anyone is coming across as angry, it is you. I for one am not angry in the least. In fact, the more I read your posts, the more saddness and compassion I feel toward you.

Well then show me your non-religious opposition to Evolution or engage me in a written formal debate.

[Butterball]

OK folks. I was always told you can't argue politics or religion. This thread has really gotten a lot of play especially with the total polarization of the participants.

Religious beliefs are born of FAITH which is something that does not have to be 'defended'. It is sheer personal belief for what ever reason. Likewise, those who have a different take on who we are, where we came from, and what happens after life are entitled to their opinion. Science can only speak to those things which it is sure of (and evolution is still just theory because no one knows FOR SURE how everything came into being or what has happened in the time since that moment); the rest is debateable. Hmmmm, debateable. That doesn't seem to be what I have been reading through all of this. Sounds like some of you have gotten on this thread just to see if you can find someone who thinks like you or put others down for not being like you. THE BOTTOM LINE IS: IF YOU BELIVE THROUGH FAITH, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DEFEND YOUR POSITION OR OPINION, NOR ARGUE IT. IF YOU DON'T HAVE FAITH, YOU CAN'T FORCE OTHERS TO BELEIVE LIKE YOU NO MATTER HOW MUCH 'FACTUAL' INFORMATION YOU THROW AT THE OTHER SIDE.

NUFF SAID !!!

[aaron]

But that's just it, my intent is not to be abrasive - but with regards to Evolution it just grinds my gears when the only opposition there is is non-scientific or when the opposition comes from people who don't even understand it.


Why?