Where evolution is taught

[amanda]

There's no harm in trying to have an open discussion.

I'm sure you'd have no problem telling us over and over and over again about your religion if we agreed. Nevertheless we don't and you dislike it.

But that doesn't have anything to do with Evolution either.


You are a troll. You aren't looking for discussion. You are looking to argue. Not debate. Just argue. We have given you are point of view - we have given ours. We haven't resorted to calling you names or putting your "belief" down - but you continue to do so with us. We have a nice community of people of different views who have no problem DISCUSSING issues, but you aren't interested in participating in this community. You've argued with everyone here in every thread you have posted. You can't even post in the Suggestions forum without coming across as a smart-a$$. Grow up, learn how to interact with others, and maybe your "IDEAS" would be more accepted.

[amanda]

Wrong. Faith is the belief of something WITHOUT evidence. So therefore you wouldn't have evidence pointing to it or it wouldn't be defined as faith.

This just shows just how wrong you are. Religion is based in history with plenty to back it up. Maybe you should continue your studies before you come on here with your "holier-than-thou" attitude.

[Valkhorn]

I personally believe that all of the people who believe that they simply evolved from dirt or apes, propably really did...

Well the Bible does say you came from dirt...

And Evolution says that we share common ancestors with apes.

I just thought I'd point that out.

[Valkhorn]

This just shows just how wrong you are. Religion is based in history with plenty to back it up. Maybe you should continue your studies before you come on here with your "holier-than-thou" attitude.Then why is faith defined as "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence"?

You either have all the evidence and require no faith, or you only have some or NO evidence and have faith or lots of it.

You can't have both.

Plus the 'holier-than-thou' remark is making my irony meter explode.

I should also add that plenty of things that took place in the Bible did not really take place (global flood for example). That is why some people INTERPRET the bible instead of believing it literally or reading it like a textbook.

Now may we go back to Evolution please? Or could you please show your sources as to why it is incorrect? Remember "My Bible Says So" is not a valid argument.

[amanda]

Then why is faith defined as "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence"?

You either have all the evidence and require no faith, or you only have some or NO evidence and have faith or lots of it.

You can't have both.


BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

This is how you sound to me at this point -

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

[amanda]

Jesus loves me this I know...for the Bible tells me so...

[amanda]

God Grant Me The Serenity to Accept the Things I Cannot Change...
the Courage to Change the Things I Can...
and the Wisdom to Know The Difference.

[zorro]

I don't know about him but I won't be happy until Zorro and The Doc retract their lies.
There are no lies to retract. With the attitude that you have displayed here, I'm not surprised that you are unhappy.

[amanda]

Little ones to Him belong,
They are weak but He is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so...

[amanda]

Jesus loves me! He who died,
Heaven's gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so...

[amanda]

Jesus loves me! loves me still,
When I'm very weak and ill;
From His shining throne on high,
Comes to watch me where I lie.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so...

[Valkhorn]

You are a troll. You aren't looking for discussion.

Then why am I asking for discussion?


There are no lies to retract. With the attitude that you have displayed here, I'm not surprised that you are unhappy.

There are many.

[amanda]

Jesus loves me! He will stay,
Close beside me all the way;
He's prepared a home for me,
And some day His face I'll see.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so!!!!!!!!!

[Valkhorn]

Jesus loves me! loves me still,
When I'm very weak and ill;
From His shining throne on high,
Comes to watch me where I lie.
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so...

In other words, we wish to have an established discussion, you wish to sing hymns. And you blame us for being narrow-minded and us for refusing to discuss anything.

[Valkhorn]

The Bible tells me so!!!!!!!!!

So what of Christians that accept Evolution?

[amanda]

God wants all His children to shine every day,
Oh, keep your light shining for Him!
He wants us to walk in His light every day,
Oh, keep your light shining for Him!
Oh, keep your light shining,
Keep your light shining,
Don't let your candle grow dim!
Oh, God wants us all to be lights in the world,
So keep your light shining for Him!

Each day that God gives us, we'll try to do right,
Oh, keep your light shining for Him!
We'll walk in the path of dear Jesus, the Light,
Oh, keep your light shining for Him!
Oh, keep your light shining,
Keep your light shining,
Don't let your candle grow dim!
Oh, God wants us all to be lights in the world,
So keep your light shining for Him!

[amanda]

All night, all day,
Angels watching over me, my Lord.
All night, all day,
Angels watching over me.

Sun is a-setting in the West;
Angels watching over me, my Lord.
Sleep my child, take your rest;
Angels watching over me.

All night, all day,
Angels watching over me, my Lord.
All night, all day,
Angels watching over me.

[Valkhorn]

Amanda,

So what of Christians that accept Evolution?

[amanda]

Down by the river
(Down by the river)
I took a little walk
(I took a little walk)
I met up with the devil
(I met up with the devil)
We had a little talk
(We had a little talk)

I pushed him in the river
(I pushed him in the river)
I hung him on the line
(I hung him on the line)
We can beat the devil
(We can beat the devil)
Any old time!
(Any old time!)

[amanda]

Father, we thank Thee for the night,
And for the pleasant morning light,
For rest and food and loving care,
And all that makes the world so fair.

Help us to do the things we should,
To be to others kind and good,
In all we do, in all we say,
To grow more loving every day.

[amanda]

"God is love," the snowflakes whisper,
As they float down from the sky,
"God is love," the breezes murmur,
As they softly whistle by.
God is love, God is love,
All things tell us: "God is love."

Little stars that shine in heaven,
As they twinkle far above,
Sparkling, smiling, at each other,
Whisper gently, "God is love."
God is love, God is love,
All things tell us: "God is love."

"God is love," the raindrops tell us,
In their pitter-patter way,
"God is love," proclaims the sunshine,
As it warms another day.
God is love, God is love,
All things tell us: "God is love."

Baby birds nest in the treetops,
Cuddled 'neath their Mama's wing,
As they snuggle ever closer,
"God is love," they sweetly sing.
God is love, God is love,
All things tell us: "God is love."

[amanda]

http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/evolution.gif

[Tully Mars]

I should also add that plenty of things that took place in the Bible did not really take place (global flood for example).

Since you are so big on providing proof for any given point of view, what is your proof that a global flood did not take place?

[Valkhorn]

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j289/valkhorn/global20water20volume20adam20nieman.jpg

That is how much water there is - enough to make a sphere only 1400 kilometers in diameter:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/SyedQadri.shtml

The total volume of liquid water is 1.3 billion cubic kilometers.

The total volume of a sphere 1400 kilometers wide is:

4/3 * pi * r^3

which equals

4/3 * pi * 700^3

or

1,435,990,766 cubic kilometers

And according to this:
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthwherewater.html

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/graphics/earthwheredistribution.gif

[Valkhorn]

Amanda's picture is a Creationist PRATT and does nothing to explain these:

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/pages5455.jpg

Or this (which was done a few years later with more fossil finds):

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2_big.jpg

Or this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

[Valkhorn]

More evidence against a global flood:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

[Valkhorn]

And then there's this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/leakeydiag.jpg

And this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2005/10/051026081736.jpg

And even this which shows us where Humans eventually went from Africa:

http://www.biologyreference.com/images/biol_02_img0231.jpg

[dream member]

And I officially feel stupid...

[Valkhorn]

And there is also Glenn Morton, a geologist who figured out on his own (with evidence posted) why there was no global flood and why the Earth is ancient:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

And yes, he is Christian.

[Tully Mars]

More evidence against a global flood:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Hang on there buddy, your initial statement concerning the flood was a statement of fact:
I should also add that plenty of things that took place in the Bible did not really take place (global flood for example).....


I asked for proof that the flood did not occur, not evidence against it. I demand proof! :smt022

[Valkhorn]

Not to mention a global flood was falsified about 200 years ago by actual Christian geologists:

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/sciences/Earthscience/Geology/AboutGeology/Historyofgeology/Historyofgeology.htm

[Astra]

Amandah and zorro - I do have to disagree with that chart. It's a massive oversimplification (and the "nearly all experts believe Lucy was a chimp" is incorrect) and overlooks most fossil evidence. The Time magazine one is much more complete and doesn't include known mistakes and hoaxes.

[Valkhorn]

I asked for proof that the flood did not occur, not evidence against it. I demand proof!

There is no such thing as proof for anything except in math. However there are mountains of evidence for a global flood and NO evidence that one ever occurred.

That's as close as you'll get.

By the way even gravity cannot be proved, the math can be yes, but not the theory.

[amanda]

http://evolutionoftruth.com/images/evolution.gif

[Valkhorn]

I demand proof!

And I know what point you are trying to make, but I never demanded proof - only substantiation.

[Astra]

Heh, that one was cute.

[Valkhorn]

Amanda, so you say there is then there isn't? And why are cartoons evidence but actual photographs of fossils not?

[amanda]

There is no such thing as proof for anything except in math. However there are mountains of evidence for a global flood and NO evidence that one ever occurred.

That's as close as you'll get.

By the way even gravity cannot be proved, the math can be yes, but not the theory.


Ahhh...so now you know more than Einstein. Man, it must be rough being you.

However, I'm willing to predict that you evolve into a troll real soon.

[Valkhorn]

Ahhh...so now you know more than Einstein. Man, it must be rough being you.

Where are you getting that? Even Einstein knew Gravity couldn't really be proved and even he had trouble explaining it.

However, I'm willing to predict that you evolve into a troll real soon.

So far the only thing you have provided is bible songs and cartoons.

I have provided evidence, research, photographs of fossils, even a map of genetic similarities between Chimps and Humans.

[Impaler]

Since you are so big on providing proof for any given point of view, what is your proof that a global flood did not take place?

Well lets see there's the worlds population which would be much to small for many historical events after the flood. In particular the battle of Troy, Persia's army circa 480 BC and Sargon of Agade. As a matter of fact Sargon of Agade's army was said to be 5,400 strong in 2340 BC, yet the worlds population following the flood in 2350 BC would only be 8. How do you propose 8 people reproduce to 5,400 in 10 years?

As well as that there's the structural impossibility of the ark itself, the fact that the Egyptians lived through it yet left no recallection, the fact that it would be impossible to fit all the "kinds" on Earth into the ark, including the 99% of which have gone extinct and the fact that most animals couldn't get to their current locations from Mt Ararat.

[amanda]

Amanda, so you say there is then there isn't? And why are cartoons evidence but actual photographs of fossils not?


Hey - you should recognize the concept. Here's one I bet you've gotten a few times too.....

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/cutemyspacecodes/c6.jpg

Might want to see what you can do about pulling that out of there....it may end up causing you problems in the future.

[Conveyor Belt]

I have a question to those who don't believe in evolution...

Where did past species go? And, where are the fossils of current species?

The way I understand the Bible, God created man and brought him all the creatures so he could name them.. now, as there are millions upon millions of creatures, this must have taken a tremendous amount of time. Okay, that was a little poke, but you get the point. Okay, so we have fossils of dinosaurs. Did man name the dinosaurs or was it dinosaurs then man?

It's easy to say God created it all, but when you get to picking at it, I'd like someone who believe it to walk me through it, please. if there's a post about it from a creationist (not a link or cut and paste) in all this stupid back and forth that's been going on that isn't really doing any good, then link the post and I'll read it.

[USincognito]

(snip photo - some of us are on dial-up)

First off Amandah, you do realize the person responsible for that graphic is in jail right now for tax evasion right? That joke was spawned by Kent Hovind and Jack Chick and neither constitutes a reliable source of information. Together they are twice as full of offal.

Now, about that list:

Lucy - No, not considered a chimpanzee by any experts. Her leg bones show she was bipedal, not semi-quadrapedal like chimps are. More importantly other Australipithicus fossils like the A. afarensis find "Taung child" show the foramen magnum is consistent with bipedalism, not quadrapedalism.

Heidelburg Man - Is a Homo, not an Australipithicene and does not belong in the series like Hovind's graphic would have people believe (that's called a lie btw). He's either a H. erectus or archaic H. sapiens.

Nebraska Man - Despite Creationist fantasies, Nebraska Man was never taken seriously by the scientific community. It was a phantasm invented by the London press, not by scientists, and just in case anyone is wondering, peccary molars and human molars do look very similar.

Piltdown Man - Was only taken seriously by people with personal agendas, much like Creationists. At the time of the Piltdown "discovery" there was a great debate about whether human development was bipedalism first or big brain first. Whomever was responsible for the Piltdown hoax was either in the big brain first camp or trying to mock them. Piltdown should not be cited by Creationists for anything other than a hoax as there has been 80+ years of hominid paleontology and apart from lies like "Lucy's Knee Joint" there hasn't been any evidence of hoaxes in human paleontology since then.

Peking Man - An H. erectus. The original fossils are missing, but the casts have been studied and the consensus is in... an H. erectus.

Neanderthal Man - Again, Creationist mythology says that all the Neanderthal finds are either modern humans with arthritus or rickets or Vitimin C difficiency or whatever argument de jure they offer, but that's just not the case. Neanderthals are either a subspecies of Homo or a seperate species, the jury is still out.

New Guinea Man - Is just an invention of Hovind. If one does a search of the scientific literature, there won't be any mention of such a find. Another Hovind lie, which is par for his course.

Cro-Magnon Man - Are archaic H. sapiens. They are recognizably human ancestors from Europe and the middle-east which most of us who grew up in the 20th Century would refer to as "cave men."

And obviously Modern Humans did come from monkeys, but about 20-25 million years after our last common ancestor with Old World Monkeys. The idea of a Colobus giving birth to a human is a phantasm created by Creationists.

[zorro]

do you consider Christians who accept evolution not to be Christians at all
That is not my position at all.

When I was a science major in college (before Valkhorn and probably yourself were born), I was the top science student in my college and I was the president of its Science Club for 2 years. I was also a professing agnostic/atheist and an evolutionist. When God revealed Himself to me in a way that I could no longer deny during my last year in college and showed me His holiness and my sinfulness, He also graciously revealed to me not only my need of a Savior, but He also revealed to me the only possible Savior for sinners.

After becoming a Christian, I myself still held initially to evolution (both macroevolution and microevolution), but I understood that it took place NOT by chance (as I did as an antitheist), but by God's providential design. As time passed, however, I re-examined the so-called proof for macroevolution, and I found that the so-called proof for it really didn't exist. In fact, macroevolution itself is NOT based on the scientific evidence. It is merely a philosophy that is disguised as being science, and thus, the unsuspecting are duped into believing that it is science when, in reality, it is not. It is merely a theory, but it certainly is not an established fact by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the evidence fairly weighed is against it. Evidence for microevolution, however, does exist. A belief in microevolution does not require or necessitate a belief in macroevolution. It is an unwarranted "leap of faith" to think that it does.

[Grengor]

As well as that there's the structural impossibility of the ark itself, the fact that the Egyptians lived through it yet left no recallection, the fact that it would be impossible to fit all the "kinds" on Earth into the ark, including the 99% of which have gone extinct and the fact that most animals couldn't get to their current locations from Mt Ararat.

Not to mention the calculations showing the amount of heat released from the flood would cook the earth...where all the water went afterwards...why mainstream geology works so well at finding oil if the earth's layers were deposited by the global flood...etc

[USincognito]

Since you are so big on providing proof for any given point of view, what is your proof that a global flood did not take place?

Since the evidence that a global flood never took place I'm going to take your bait and ignore the fact that in debate, the burden is on those who claim something did take place rather than on those who doubt it.

The most obvious evidence that a global flood didn't take place is in the ground itself. Sedimentary deposits of things like chalk and salt don't happen in 380ish days. The take 10s to 100s of thousands of years and sometimes millions to create things like the "White Cliffs of Dover" or the salt mines we find in Germany and Poland for example.

We also find something even the Greeks realized two and a half millenia ago, that fossilized sea beings in the mountains were not washed into place, but died, were fossilized and that geologic upheaval (these days known as plate tectonics) caused them to be found on mountain tops.

Hydrological Sorting, as claimed by Flood advocates is a joke. Trilobites are never found with hedgehogs. Kangaroos are never found with Velociraptors. Cockroaches are never found with Ammonites. Dolpins are never found with Ichthyosaurs. Elephants are never found with Apatosaurs. Eagles are never found with Pterosaurs. If the ability to escape the rising flood waters which explains hydrological sorting had any merit, all of these examples would be found in the same strata.. and yet they're not.

And I didn't even mention the fact that pollen is Never ever found in strata that predate flowering plants. Don't you think that pollen, I mean it's endemic in how it causes allergies, would be found in every single strata if flowering plants pre-dated the Flood? And yet they're not...

[Valkhorn]

When I was a science major in college (before Valkhorn and probably yourself were born), I was the top science student in my college and I was the president of its Science Club for 2 years. I was also a professing agnostic/atheist and an evolutionist. When God revealed Himself to me in a way that I could no longer deny during my last year in college and showed me His holiness and my sinfulness, He also graciously revealed to me not only my need of a Savior, but He also revealed to me the only possible Savior for sinners.

After becoming a Christian, I myself still held initially to evolution (both macroevolution and microevolution), but I understood that it took place NOT by chance (as I did as an antitheist), but by God's providential design. As time passed, however, I re-examined the so-called proof for macroevolution, and I found that the so-called proof for it really didn't exist. In fact, macroevolution itself is NOT based on the scientific evidence. It is merely a philosophy that is disguised as being science, and thus, the unsuspecting are duped into believing that it is science when, in reality, it is not. It is merely a theory, but it certainly is not an established fact by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the evidence fairly weighed is against it. Evidence for microevolution, however, does exist. A belief in microevolution does not require or necessitate a belief in macroevolution. It is an unwarranted "leap of faith" to think that it does.

How could someone who was a science major and president of the science club never know that Evolution is not random chance.

Natural-Selection is not random at all.

Plus are you suggesting macroevolution is something like a dog giving birth to a pineapple? Because that isn't what Evolution says.

I also addressed evolution and speciation pages ago - I guess you missed that.

[Valkhorn]

Zorro, I wanted to give you rep on this, but I'm all out. An excellent, personal answer based on experience and faith.

But based on zero evidence.

Zorro doesn't understand what Evolution is - and I addressed that in the previous post and in many other posts yet you chose to ignore it.

[USincognito]

That is not my position at all.

Good. Because a lot of Christians get mighty upset when people suggest they aren't Christian because they accept evolution and interpret Genesis differently than you do.

When I was a science major in college (before Valkhorn and probably yourself were born)

I'm 38. If you think the age card is worth dealing, then go ahead and play it. I prefer to stick to whether facts one cites stand up under scrutiny than ad hominem diversions.

I was the top science student in my college and I was the president of its Science Club for 2 years. I was also a professing agnostic/atheist and an evolutionist. When God revealed Himself to me in a way that I could no longer deny during my last year in college and showed me His holiness and my sinfulness, He also graciously revealed to me not only my need of a Savior, but He also revealed to me the only possible Savior for sinners.

I have no idea what this has to do with the evidence for or against evolution. Your personal testimony of your experience on the Damascus road doesn't make all the fossil and gentic evidence go away nor does it change that Genesis is still a wonderfully metaphoric message of God's soverignty over the Creation - as opposed to the Babylonian gods - that it was meant to be for people who weren't stuck in a literalist mindset.

After becoming a Christian, I myself still held initially to evolution (both macroevolution and microevolution),

There is no "microevolution" or "macroevolution" only evolution, just as there is not "walking to my mailbox" and "walking the Appalacian trail" only walking.

but I understood that it took place NOT by chance (as I did as an antitheist), but by God's providential design. As time passed, however, I re-examined the so-called proof for macroevolution, and I found that the so-called proof for it really didn't exist. In fact, macroevolution itself is NOT based on the scientific evidence. It is merely a philosophy that is disguised as being science,

That is simply a myth propigated by Creationists and a diversion from an analysis of the evidence. ALL of the evidence points to common ancestry and evolution having occured and NONE of it falsifies it. If you have any evidence falsifying common ancestry, feel free to present it. If all you have are "gut feelings" and "intuition" don't bother. I want the rubber to meet the road, not for the wheels to spin.

...and thus, the unsuspecting are duped into believing that it is science when, in reality, it is not. It is merely a theory, but it certainly is not an established fact by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the evidence fairly weighed is against it. Evidence for microevolution, however, does exist. A belief in microevolution does not require or necessitate a belief in macroevolution. It is an unwarranted "leap of faith" to think that it does.

By using "merely a theory" you show me you don't understand science and I wonder if you ever got your degree in science after all. Could you give me your definition of "theory" before we continue our discussion?

[USincognito]

Amandah and zorro - I do have to disagree with that chart. It's a massive oversimplification (and the "nearly all experts believe Lucy was a chimp" is incorrect) and overlooks most fossil evidence. The Time magazine one is much more complete and doesn't include known mistakes and hoaxes.

Thank you. I haven't quite figured out the rep system here, but I would if I could (figure it out that is).

[Conveyor Belt]

I'm under the scientifc impression that a Theory is a proven hypothesis, that has been proven time and time again. It's not like a theory in the game of clue, or your theory on how a murder novel will resolve itself, but something much, much more substantial.

We keep tossing out the term 'theory' like it's someone's 'idea' and is easily dismissed.

[Astra]

To all the new members: please take a look around here and at least read the FAQs if you plan to stick around.

[USincognito]

Well the Bible does say you came from dirt...

And Evolution says that we share common ancestors with apes.

I just thought I'd point that out.

Just a personal comment. Leave the theology for a different discussion. Stick to the evidence for evolution and the fact that Creationism is long falsified instead of descending into the intellectual gutter with them.

The Creationists can't deal with the evidence (witness amandah and Queen mother's "responses") so just keep hammering them with that rather than getting into a metaphysical discussion.

My two cents. :)

[Grengor]

I'm under the scientifc impression that a Theory is a proven hypothesis, that has been proven time and time again. It's not like a theory in the game of clue, or your theory on how a murder novel will resolve itself, but something much, much more substantial.

We keep tossing out the term 'theory' like it's someone's 'idea' and is easily dismissed.

A theory, in the scientific sense, is not "proven". That's a misconception you should do away with as quickly as possible. Nothing is proven in science, even laws. Just incredibly well evidenced. A scientific theory is more an encompassing body of facts, hypothesis (with experiments confirming them), and can even incorporate laws. There's the fact of natural selection, DNA, chemistry, etc. Then there's the overall underlying theory of WHY things evolve. That's the theory of evolution.

But yes the distinction between a layman's theory and a scientific theory is too often gone ignored

[Blasko]

To all the new members: please take a look around here and at least read the FAQs if you plan to stick around.
http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/images/buttons/post_thanks.gif (http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=226378)http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/images/buttons/post_groan.gif (http://www.myhattiesburg.com/forums/post_groan.php?do=post_groan_add&p=226378) I just want to say that I love the reputation system here.

The argument that convinces men of the reality of religion is that which they gather from the holiness and earnestness of those who profess to be Christ's followers. As a rule, they barricade their minds against the assaults of reason.Who is the 'they' here? I read it as Christ's followers barricade their minds against the assaults of reason (presumably belonging to infidels)...which I'm only too happy to agree with!

Of course I'm joking. :)

[amanda]

Just a personal comment. Leave the theology for a different discussion. Stick to the evidence for evolution and the fact that Creationism is long falsified instead of descending into the intellectual gutter with them.

The Creationists can't deal with the evidence (witness amandah and Queen mother's "responses") so just keep hammering them with that rather than getting into a metaphysical discussion.

My two cents. :)

LOL. You've posted here how many times? You don't know ANYTHING about me or my position.

This thread started out talking about WHERE evolution was taught and has EVOLVED into a debate regarding evolution. It is my PERSONAL belief that regardless of how we MAY have started out - we were CREATED by GOD. Science changes every day.

[USincognito]

Hey SoMissTV, if you see this I wanted to give you a shout out for your VT avatar. I was going to do the same on other forums, but I don't have the software to do so.

There are gaps in Evolution.

Unless one wishes to invoke Zeno's paradox, there are few, if any gaps in the fossil record these days and the genetic/molecular record is even more convincing than the fossil record. Any gaps that exist do so only in the minds of Creationists who are ignorant of the evidence or unwilling to accept it.

[Blasko]

They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deedsI guess God really does see all. Very well, I admit that I find Adam Sandler movies to be adorable.

[Conveyor Belt]

LOL. You've posted here how many times? You don't know ANYTHING about me or my position.

This thread started out talking about WHERE evolution was taught and has EVOLVED into a debate regarding evolution. It is my PERSONAL belief that regardless of how we MAY have started out - we were CREATED by GOD. Science changes every day.

Interpretation of God changes every day, too...

[USincognito]

I'm under the scientifc impression that a Theory is a proven hypothesis, that has been proven time and time again. It's not like a theory in the game of clue, or your theory on how a murder novel will resolve itself, but something much, much more substantial.

We keep tossing out the term 'theory' like it's someone's 'idea' and is easily dismissed.

You're on the right track, but you missed the station by a bit. "Proof" is for math, alcohol and colloquially for the courtroom. Scientific theories, laws and hypothoeses must always be falsifiable by new evidence so they are never actually "proven."

This is a "for dummies" guide to how the process works.
- something is observed.
- hypotheses or a single hypothesis is developed explaining that something.
- over time, if evidence supports that hypothesis, the observations of how something works mathmatically becomes a law and why something works becomes a theory.
- further observations will continue to buttress the law or theory with evidence or they will falsify it.

[Blasko]

Science changes every day.Why is that a bad thing?

[Conveyor Belt]

"At the time of the offering of the {evening} sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word.

Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and {that} You have turned their heart back again.

Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, He is God; the LORD, He is God."

I Kings 18: 36-39

What does this have to do with evolution??? Take it to the Scripture of the Day thread...

[SoMissTV]

TheDoc-

The scripture is kinda off-topic for this thread.

[Grengor]

Honestly, we're all way off from the original topic of this thread. But TheDoc's just plain spamming.

[Blasko]

We will never agree on this topic and you are wasting your time to keep 'hammering' me and others here with your 'evidence.' Those who believe in the Bible's truths don't need your evidence. You obviously don't believe those truths, so stop 'hammering' your evidence - I ain't gonna buy it.

I'm sure that's fine, but when lots of people believe in creationism and its variants and want it to be included in the school classroom (see the original post), then atheists get all riled up. The fact is, people can hold whatever beliefs they want to. But when those beliefs start infringing upon other people's beliefs (or more precisely, the education of the children) then there needs to be a strong challenge.

Also, debates freshen the mind. So does chess, I recommend both.

[SoMissTV]

I think everyone on this thread needs to take a breath for a couple of days. There are apparently two types of people on this thread:

1) Those who believe in evolution and intend to disprove other theories.

2) Those who are tired of the debate and wish it to end.

I should point out that most of those in group one have not done anything that would violate the terms of this site, and I have not found any posts that indicate that anyone should be banned for the tone of the posts. We let far worse occur on this site every day.

I should also point out that those from group two seem to be working against themselves by not ignoring this thread. There is nothing inappropriate in this thread (so it doesn't need to be put in a private group), and if you aren't interested in the discussion, don't read it.

We have had a number of new people sign up on the forum to debate a particular issue. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, as long as it is done respectfully. I encourage all of you to review the tone with which you speak, and let's try to keep it civil.

With that said, I will continue to use my positive rep abilities to keep as many as I can out of troll status so that they may continue to post their thoughts in a respectful manner. I ask those of you who are systematically attempting to troll people out to consider ignoring this thread for its duration.

Thanks!

SoMissTV

[USincognito]

LOL. You've posted here how many times? You don't know ANYTHING about me or my position.

Your response to every piece of evidence about evolution has been child-like hymns instead of addressing the actual evidence. Trust me hon, I've encountered your type more times on-line than you've encountered folks like me. The Internet, and people like you who post to it have been around a lot longer than I have been a member of this forum.

This thread started out talking about WHERE evolution was taught and has EVOLVED into a debate regarding evolution. It is my PERSONAL belief that regardless of how we MAY have started out - we were CREATED by GOD. Science changes every day.

And again, here we go with people who "stand for truth" acting like words don't have any meaning. "Evolved" used in the common parlance is different from "evolved" in the scientific sense. Cute debate tactic, but it doesn't really add much to the dialogue. I hate to be redundant, but again, you seem to be conflating evolution with atheism. Whether God, some other deity, abiogenesis or transdimensional high school students initiated life on Earth it's undeniable that life, over the last 4.5 billion years has evolved. There is room within Genesis for a literal Adam within the last 10,000 yearsish, but the evidence just doesn't support a fiat creation 6,000 years ago, humans being a seperate creation and the Noachian Flood.

And yeah, Science changes every day... that's called progress and it's something modern humans living in, say, the West, have embraced. As opposed to Muslims who think the world would be better if we all lived as Mohammed did. And just to be clear, it's not like the Bible hasn't changed - Arianism, Nicea, the Reformation, Fundamentalism, Seventh Day Adventism, KJV, NIV, etc. Don't act like your theology is the same as those who witnessed Christ's crucifixion and resurrection...

[Conveyor Belt]

As Amandah said, you don't know anything about me either. And, the only response I need to give you is my belief which is this:

The only evidence I need to support my belief is my faith in the Bible. It requires faith on my part to accept that God is behind the wonderful creation of the universe. He didn't need to create it, He chose to create it as an expression of His love for each of us.

How did He create it? The Bible gives a description but it doesn't answer all the questions we have. We may never know all the answers, but the Bible tells us that God did create it and that fact alone gives worth and dignity to the creation.

We will never agree on this topic and you are wasting your time to keep 'hammering' me and others here with your 'evidence.' Those who believe in the Bible's truths don't need your evidence. You obviously don't believe those truths, so stop 'hammering' your evidence - I ain't gonna buy it.

I have an honest question... Do you not question exactly how the world came into being? I know, that I am an incredibly curious individual, and I can't take 'I don't know' as an answer. I don't know how to word it correctly, and this is an instance where my enunciation and word flow would help to make the questions more palatable...

Some Christians say 'God created the world, and that's all I need to know'. I can't help but wonder if they're hiding blindly behind their faith, or if they really are this content in their lack of detailed knowledge. By detailed knowledge, I'm referring to the lack of detail in the Bible. So, are you content in your lack of detailed knowledge, or would you like to know more?

I'm still not sure it came out right...

[zorro]

there are few, if any gaps in the fossil record these days and the genetic/molecular record is even more convincing than the fossil record. Any gaps that exist do so only in the minds of Creationists who are ignorant of the evidence or unwilling to accept it.
This simply isn't true (in fact, the truth is just the opposite), and your last remark above is simply rude and insulting. It is an attempt to "win by intimidation". It appears that this is the modus operandi of your little troll group when others don't agree with them. Guess what? Nobody here is intimidated by this technique.

You guys really need to grow up. Don't be so irritated when other people aren't convinced by the same data that convinces you. Just state your case respectfully and move on. Otherwise, you may find that the community here moves you down the road whether you like it or not.

[SoMissTV]

So you believe that calling respected and established posters here stupid, ignorant, and purposefully untruthful is appropriate?

Not necessarily. However, I think the language from ALL parties in this thread has been of a similar nature, so there is no one party to single out. There has certainly been nothing said that is so bad as to warrant an immediate ban from this board. If someone feels otherwise, please use the "report post" button on the top right corner of the post in question to report it to the moderators.

Again, I would ask everyone to walk away from this thread for a little while, and then come back later when this debate can be held in an open and respectful manner.

[USincognito]

As Amandah said, you don't know anything about me either. And, the only response I need to give you is my belief which is this:

Read my previous response to her... I know you.. I've deal with people like you. That's not an insult or attempt at intimidation, but just letting you know I've been around and not some newbie into this particular discussion.

The only evidence I need to support my belief is my faith in the Bible. It requires faith on my part to accept that God is behind the wonderful creation of the universe. He didn't need to create it, He chose to create it as an expression of His love for each of us.

All of which is theology and metaphysics and not what I have come her to discuss. God's love for me doesn't explain why the human chromosome 2 is identical to chimpanzee chomosomes, only broken and folded exactly to where the telomeres and centomeres line up explaining why chimps have 48 chromosomes and we have 46. That I have to assertain from a source other than the Bible.

How did He create it? The Bible gives a description but it doesn't answer all the questions we have. We may never know all the answers, but the Bible tells us that God did create it and that fact alone gives worth and dignity to the creation.

We're just going to have to disagree on your second sentence. Genesis doesn't describe Creation, it describes God telling the Hebrews how he is responsible for Creation and that He, not the Babylonian gods was responsible for bringing order from chaos, the Sun, the Moon, the Earth and life on it into being. It's not a science textbook, it's theology.

We will never agree on this topic and you are wasting your time to keep 'hammering' me and others here with your 'evidence.' Those who believe in the Bible's truths don't need your evidence. You obviously don't believe those truths, so stop 'hammering' your evidence - I ain't gonna buy it.

Yeah, like you'd stop "hammering" a Jewish or Muslim friend of yours who didn't believe Christ was the Messiah just because you disagreed? Feel free to put evidence in quotes all you want but I'm going to distill my theological sentence down to a couple of sentences - A metaphoric Genesis does not deny the truths contained within it nor have anything to do with whether the Resurrection occured or not. You're taking the Atheist's gambit when you suggest that every word of the Bible is literal (which I know you don't believe - God's anthropomorphic interactions in Genesis or Christ being a door) or you have to reject all of it.

Turkana Boy being a human ancestor doesn't mean Christ was never resurrected... it means you need to change your interpretation of Genesis.

[SoMissTV]

Walk away, Doc, walk away.

I don't need to argue my point with you.

[dollfus46]

Not necessarily. However, I think the language from ALL parties in this thread has been of a similar nature, so there is no one party to single out. There has certainly been nothing said that is so bad as to warrant an immediate ban from this board. If someone feels otherwise, please use the "report post" button on the top right corner of the post in question to report it to the moderators.

Again, I would ask everyone to walk away from this thread for a little while, and then come back later when this debate can be held in an open and respectful manner.

I disagree. I see the only disrespectful posts are coming from the evolutionists. I also find it more than coincidental that about five of them came on all at the same time. I wonder how many have ever been to Hattiesburg. It's not like they are posting all over the board.

[PeteH]

In fact, macroevolution itself is NOT based on the scientific evidence. It is merely a philosophy that is disguised as being science, and thus, the unsuspecting are duped into believing that it is science when, in reality, it is not. It is merely a theory, but it certainly is not an established fact by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the evidence fairly weighed is against it.

And yet... it's an applied science. Fancy that! :D

[USincognito]

This simply isn't true (in fact, the truth is just the opposite), and your last remark above is simply rude and insulting. It is an attempt to "win by intimidation". It appears that this is the modus operandi of your little troll group when others don't agree with them. Guess what? Nobody here is intimidated by this technique.

It's nearing my bedtime, but if you want to retract this bluster feel free. Othewise in 18-36 hours I will unleash a fussilade of links to sites evidencing both the fossil and genetic evidence for evolution.

Consider your options before responding with more bluster. Even your fellow Creationists will notice the difference between the content of your posts and mine. :)

[SoMissTV]

Othewise in 18-36 hours I will unleash a fussilade of links to sites evidencing both the fossil and genetic evidence for evolution.

Consider your options before responding with more bluster.

Please watch your tone here, USi. I'm told that some have taken offense to your tone.

Thanks!

[Blasko]

People, perhaps we could calm down a little. There's more testosterone flying around here than a WWF match. It's entirely unnecessary.

[SoMissTV]

I wonder how many have ever been to Hattiesburg.

Doesn't matter. Visiting Hattiesburg is not a requirement for posting here.

[Baloo]

Cute little story.........


An atheist was walking through the woods and said to himself,



"What majestic trees!"



"What powerful rivers!"



"What beautiful animals!"



As he walked alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes

behind him. He turned to look and saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards

him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder

and saw that the bear was closing in on him.



He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. He

tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but

saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his

left paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant, the

Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!"



Time Stopped.


The bear froze.


The forest was silent.



As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You

deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and

even credit creation to cosmic accident. "Do you expect me to help you

out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"



The atheist looked directly into the light and said, "It would be

hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now,

but perhaps, You could make the BEAR a Christian?"



Very Well," said the voice.



The light went out.


The sounds of the forest resumed.


The bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his

head, and spoke:


"Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty

through Christ our Lord, Amen."

[PeteH]

I have a question: Do the creationists here view the issue with evolution as an issue of science or an issue of atheism vs religion?

[Conveyor Belt]

And if I post a joke lampooning a Christian and God, how many neg reps would I get???

[Baloo]

CB, I was just joking! Just trying to lighten the mood on the thread a little... Please post all of the jokes about God that you want to... I am comfortable in my beliefs and can take a joke!

[SoMissTV]

And if I post a joke lampooning a Christian and God, how many neg reps would I get???

I thought the same thing.

Baloo, it's not an affront to you; it's an observation of the attitudes of those who do not agree with anything that doesn't portray Christianity in a positive light.

[Baloo]

Thanks for clarifying that SoMissTV... I really haven't read all of the posts on this thread, just enough to think that it needed to be lightened up a little... I am all for believing what I believe and allowing others in this world the same... We don't all have to agree on everything, but can't we all just get along?????

[Baloo]

We have tons of religion threads, I am all for allowing those who believe in evolution to have a thread to discuss their beliefs... I do not believe in personally attacking each other over oposing opinions or attacking someone else's beliefs... If I don't agree with someone else, I just agree to disagree with them and not judge them or think that I am better than anyone else... I really was just joking....

[Baloo]

You lost me on that one Doc... I am a Christian and believe that God created the Earth and everything in, on and around it...

I guess people can call whatever they want to a religion nowadays... If it isn't Christian, then it just doesn't make any sense to this old country girl....

However, I don't think that being a Christian makes me any better or worse than anyone else... We are all entitled to our own beliefs how we live our lives...

I have known a lot of athiests or agnostic people who were good people and I have known a lot of so called Christians who were not so good... This debate has gone on for centuries and I am sure will continue as long as two people are left on the face of the Earth...

I just believe that the world needs people to be more loving and understanding of one another...

[SoMissTV]

If you want to make fun of God,no problem,Why should it bother me.My faith won't be in question,I'm not gonna type a bunch of excessive crapola telling you how stoopid you are.

There are others on this board who most decidedly don't feel that way.

[virgo]

Again, I would ask everyone to walk away from this thread for a little while, and then come back later when this debate can be held in an open and respectful manner.

We passed the "open and respectful manner" period a LONG TIME ago. I think we are way beyond that. JMHO

[Baloo]

fotno, I love the story and am on the side of the bear, I hope that I did not not come across any other way, but really didn't intend to step on any sensitive little toes out there... Just thought the thread needed a laugh... I am ok with CB making fun of Christians if he wants to... I can take a joke...

[Blasko]

It's funny how` some people live there whole life being to smart to put their faith in a Jewish carpenter until the proverbial doo doo hit's the fan.Reminds me of the old 'no atheists in fox-holes' fallacy. I wonder, are there actually atheists who turn to Christ in bad situations? Or is this just how atheists are thought of by fellow Americans, as people whose beliefs and personal fortitude are so weak that they'd change their positions at any bad roll of the dice.

It's vaguely insulting, but then again I never put too much stock in what people think about me or my beliefs.

[SoMissTV]

Then your faith is weak.

I didn't say I have that problem, fotno. I'm trying to let Baloo know that there are a few people on this forum who are trolling out people that are attacking Christianity. I am not one of them. I don't want him to get trolled out. Get the picture?

[Astra]

Reminds me of the old 'no atheists in fox-holes' fallacy. I wonder, are there actually atheists who turn to Christ in bad situations? Or is it just how atheists are thought of, as people whose beliefs are so weak that they'd change their positions if their life turns bad.

It's vaguely insulting, but then again I never put too much stock in what people think about me or my beliefs.
I'm sure there are, just as some Christians may doubt their faith when terrible things happen to them. No matter what you believe, tough times and tragedy will test you.

[Baloo]

Thanks SoMiss..

Astra, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one... I have seen many Christians go through tough trials and then deny God or turn away from him... I don't think that atheists or evolutionists are weak, just different than what I believe...

[dream member]

Cute little story.........

An atheist was walking through the woods and said to himself,


"What majestic trees!"


"What powerful rivers!"


"What beautiful animals!"


As he walked alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushesbehind him. He turned to look and saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towardshim. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulderand saw that the bear was closing in on him.


He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. Hetripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up butsaw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with hisleft paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant, theAtheist cried out, "Oh my God!"


Time Stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.


As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "Youdeny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, andeven credit creation to cosmic accident. "Do you expect me to help youout of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"


The atheist looked directly into the light and said, "It would behypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now,but perhaps, You could make the BEAR a Christian?"


Very Well," said the voice.


The light went out.

The sounds of the forest resumed.

The bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed hishead, and spoke:

"Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bountythrough Christ our Lord, Amen."

lol, and that was cute! I'm a Catholic and that was funny! I also hear jokes about women...I laugh! I hear jokes about brunettes (not too many, hehe)...I laugh! I hear jokes about myself...I laugh!

Hakuna Matata! (spelled right...I went to another Disney classic)! :clap:

[Baloo]

fotno, it's never too late.... I am sorry that you guys see so much death and destruction over there... You are in many thoughts and prayers...

[Baloo]

Thanks Doc... I don't think that you lack faith at all... Religion and personal beliefs are things that most people put their whole hearts into and I think that is why it is so easy for so many people to become offended or get their feelings hurt when someone says something negative or disagrees with what they do... Thanks for the question and the enlightening posts!

[dollfus46]

Hey Baloo. Out of curiousity, do you believe that evolution is a religion?

Not like you, Doc. I'd take offense at the question if were Baloo.

[USincognito]

Please watch your tone here, USi. I'm told that some have taken offense to your tone.

I'm thankful for the heads up, but a bit taken aback as I have not used any curse words, been sexually suggestive or threatened anyone in any way so I cannot imagine, given my decade long experiences with Internet debate what sort of "tone" might have rung foul with anyone here. If there is chatter about my contributions to this discussion, I'd appreciate them being directed to me via PM or posted to the forum so I can correct myself.

I see no shame in public admonishment for inappropriate behavior nor am I unwilling to change my ways if others don't find me acceptable.

[USincognito]

Cute little story........

Problematic little story...

- You're conflating evolution with atheism and thus insulting the majority of Christians and religious believers who have no problem with evolution.
and
- You're suggesting bears can speak which only happens in Fairy Tales. Now Fairy Tales and things like Aesop's Fables can contain wisdom (the Fox and the Grapes is one of my favorite to cite), but you're not suggesting that your story has any basis in fact are you?

I've been reading and posting here for the past few days and have seen zero discussion of the evidence by Creationists. This isn't a metaphysical discussion or a clash of interpretations. It's about the bones we dig from the ground and the DNA we find in our genes. Singsongs, stories and metaphors aren't going to cut it. Either produce some tangible evidence or admit you are opposed to evolution because of your particular sects theology.

I know everyone from Orthodox to Hindus that accept evolution and their beliefs range from literal Adam and Eve to a totally metaphoric Genesis, but all of them accept deep time and the evolution of life on Earth (with some obvious reservations). They can't deny the reality of the evidence... how can you all?

[USincognito]

I have known a lot of athiests or agnostic people who were good people and I have known a lot of so called Christians who were not so good... This debate has gone on for centuries and I am sure will continue as long as two people are left on the face of the Earth...

I just believe that the world needs people to be more loving and understanding of one another...

This is a very sweet sentiment, especially the last sentence and since I'm a newbie here I want to give an Amen to it.

When I became aware of the existance of this thread I decided to sign up and discuss the issue of Creation and Evolution on the scientific merits of either side - I'm not interested in metaphysics or evangelism. I'm just about the brass tacks. Metaphysics don't concern me any longer because I have too many friends from too many diverse religious backgrounds for me to worry about them on this issue. We can discuss theology in other venues.

I have friends who are all manner of Christian denominations including an Orthodox subdeacon IRL, a Presbetyrian pastor on-line, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, a Quakeresque (he's a really neat fellow), Lutherans, Jews, non-believers, a Muslim or two and a Hindu or so. I find Scientology and Wicca a bit weird so I don't have any of them as friends, but I like to stay open minded.

But none of that matters. Whether the people I like think the Earth is 6,000 years old or not matters not one whit as to the actual age of the Earth. Whether they venerate Icons or think the Himilayas are Shiva's hair doesn't change the geology of the planet. Whether they think the Host is literally the blood and body of Christ doesn't change the fact that Monotremes have the characteristics we'd expect to find in species transitional between reptiles and mammals.

No matter how much Creationists wish to make this a religious debate, it isn't. It's about the scientific evidence and that's all I wish to discuss.