Poignant view from an atheist professor at VT

[Astra]

A prominent blogger named Dinesh D’Souza decided to use the VT tragedy as an excuse to rail against atheists. A professor responded, and I highly recommend the read. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/19/18451/0971)

[Hermione]

Well Astra, there was some railing on both sides, but I agree that the whole thing is inappropriate. On the Anglican blog I read, we have been asked to pray for the Cho family, and a means has been provided to send email to their attorney expressing our concern for that family as well. As far as I'm concerned, that's the right response now, and these other issues should wait.

(Some years ago, we had long-time friends whose grandson killed his girlfriend and then himself in the parking lot of their church. The pain of that family was indescribable.)

[aaron]

I think they are both just looking for publicity.

[Valkhorn]

I think they are both just looking for publicity.

Wrong again. It was the other guy who rallied against Atheism as a public news column. He got paid for it.

The Atheist has a right to defend himself - and he did so in a free blog.

[aaron]

That atheists page has ads on it. You get paid to have ads on a page.

[Astra]

That atheists page has ads on it. You get paid to have ads on a page.
Um, for the record, so does D'Souza's.

[aaron]

Thus my point. There are many blogs that have seen a revenue boost because they want to bring up religion or lack thereof, gun control or lack thereof. It seems as if none of these people can just be civil and not try to turn a massacre into a cash cow.

[Valkhorn]

Thus my point. There are many blogs that have seen a revenue boost because they want to bring up religion or lack thereof, gun control or lack thereof. It seems as if none of these people can just be civil and not try to turn a massacre into a cash cow.

Oh get off your high horse. If this was reversed and it was a Christian battling an Atheist's comments in a public newspaper you'd have no problem with it.

PS: You have an error in mysql handling of newline characters in one of your forms.

[Valkhorn]

fuzzis disagrees: When the horse is dead, you're supposed to get off it rather than continuing to ride it to nowhere.That made absolutely no sense.

And come on, if there were zero ads on the site Aaron would find a way to complain.

[aaron]

Wrong again, review some of my posts and blog posts on Pat Robertson. I don't like sensationalism for publicity in any format. Besides, I said both of them.

[Valkhorn]

<!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message -->Wrong again, review some of my posts and blog posts on Pat Robertson. I don't like sensationalism for publicity in any format. Besides, I said both of them.

Then how come your only argument against a plausible scientific theory is because your bible says so?

[amanda]

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Then how come your only argument against a plausible scientific theory is because your bible says so?


:asshkr: :kissmy: :pantsdown:

[Conveyor Belt]

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Then how come your only argument against a plausible scientific theory is because your bible says so?

WTF are you trying to do? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to constantly berate others of their beliefs just to make yourself feel better? YOU'RE one of the one's who give Christians ammunition against non-Christians. You're no better than the perceived ignorant believers you rail against. At least some of them will give you a chance to believe what you want. You keep trying to shove atheism down everyone's throat, and it's stupid and annoying. You're not superior just because you believe in atheism.

[RHB]

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Then how come your only argument against a plausible scientific theory is because your bible says so?

You just completely jumped into left field.

[dollfus46]

WTF are you trying to do? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to constantly berate others of their beliefs just to make yourself feel better? YOU'RE one of the one's who give Christians ammunition against non-Christians. You're no better than the perceived ignorant believers you rail against. At least some of them will give you a chance to believe what you want. You keep trying to shove atheism down everyone's throat, and it's stupid and annoying. You're not superior just because you believe in atheism.

Ignorant believers? Am I misunderstanding or did you just call us Christians ignorant? But I agree with the rest of it. :clap:

[zorro]

WTF are you trying to do? Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to constantly berate others of their beliefs just to make yourself feel better? YOU'RE one of the one's who give Christians ammunition against non-Christians. You're no better than the perceived ignorant believers you rail against. At least some of them will give you a chance to believe what you want. You keep trying to shove atheism down everyone's throat, and it's stupid and annoying. You're not superior just because you believe in atheism.
I'm out of all positive and negative ammo for now, but when I get some, I am going to give you some positive rep for this. Very well said (though I probably wouldn't have personally brought up the World Trade Federation). :yes:

[dollfus46]

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Then how come your only argument against a plausible scientific theory is because your bible says so?

Heh heh heh. Nice try. "plausible scientific theory." Big impressive words that mean, "pie in the sky. No one needs any ammunition, Bible or otherwise, to argue against a "plausible theory." That alone is the argument. :laugh:

[Conveyor Belt]

Ignorant believers? Am I misunderstanding or did you just call us Christians ignorant? But I agree with the rest of it. :clap:

dollfus, you're hopeless :)

[Astra]

Quick question, and not trying to be a smart alleck...if this is a religion thread, and atheism is NOT a religion, then why is a quote from an proponent of atheism about atheism on this thread?
I was under the impression "religion" covered all forms of belief, including the lack of. The article also had some insight on how people who don't feel that a deity is somehow to blame or available to comfort them in times like this. I can't be the only one who has heard people already try to blame the VT tragedy on "the evil godless." I found it interesting and wanted to share.

[Astra]

And his opinion suddenly matters to you why? Does not being a Christian make one's views on religion completely irrelevant? I don't think so.

[Valkhorn]

I personally think that atheism is definately a religion. That is why I said I was not being a smart alleck with the question.

So tell us in the appropriate thread (hint: not this one) why it is? Tell us what we worship and pray to? Because it would be news to me.

[KingMaker]

So tell us in the appropriate thread (hint: not this one) why it is? Tell us what we worship and pray to? Because it would be news to me.


I have made a point to stay out of the threads on Atheists and atheism. The main reason is that I don't want to be seen as a basher. I don't hold any ill will towards any of you. In fact I feel a great deal of sorrow in my heart for all of you.

Valkhorn has posed the question asking to what Atheists worship? It's a valid question, and I'll venture an answer.

The atheist worships whatever they hold most dear in their lives. Maybe it's family, maybe it's money, maybe it's achievement. It's whatever you fill the void in your life with.

I can't answer that question for you directly, because I don't know you. But, if you think about it, your god is whatever you hold most dear to you.

I will continue to pray for each of you...

[Quark]

Not according to Valkhorn et al.No, atheism is a lack of theistic belief. Starting a thread about atheism in a theism forum doesn't render atheism theism.

[Quark]

I have made a point to stay out of the threads on Atheists and atheism. The main reason is that I don't want to be seen as a basher. I don't hold any ill will towards any of you. In fact I feel a great deal of sorrow in my heart for all of you. Thank you, I don't hold any ill will toward theists either. Your sorrow is wasted emotion however. It's not necessary. When I was a believer I was optimistic and believed that god wanted me to have hope for atheists. That is what I would encourage for you, hope and optimism.

The atheist worships whatever they hold most dear in their lives. Maybe it's family, maybe it's money, maybe it's achievement. It's whatever you fill the void in your life with. Metaphorically I don't have a problem with the use of the word "worship". However I don't pray to my money or family or achievement.

I can't answer that question for you directly, because I don't know you. But, if you think about it, your god is whatever you hold most dear to you. If you have a family then you know that I hold them most dear just as you do. To the extent that you worship your family then I worship mine.

I will continue to pray for each of you...With all due respect, I find this arrogant and presumptuous. I would prefer that you keep it to yourself. If you want to pray for me then I would hope that you would follow the admonition of Christ who told his followers to pray in secret. Telling me that you will pray for me accomplishes nothing but to patronize. I would appreciate it if you didn't do that.

Thanks,

Quark.

[Quark]

So would you agree that such a thread is off topic for a Religion/Spirituality forum?No of course not. However it is not my forum and I would respect the moderators wishes if they dictated otherwise.

Atheists would like theists to understand our point of view. We are not here because atheism is a religion. We are here because we have a point of view that is salient to theism.

[Quark]

I understand your point of view very well. I lived it.Likewise. I graduated seminary, served a mission and was a volunteer at my church.

[Quark]

With all due respect, engaging in certain Christian-type behaviors does not mean a person has truly had an encounter with Jesus Christ.

I'd be very interested in hearing about your experiences and what led you to turn from this life. Please feel free to PM.I don't mind publicly stating why I believe what I believe.

You are right that behavior does not prove such an encounter. I only know that I sold everything I owned and gave up a significant part of my life to preach the gospel. I did so because I felt a great spirtual desire to do it. I was passionate and dedicated in my service. You will have to make do with that what you will.

As to why I became an atheist, the experiences would fill volumes I assure you. My transition took years and many, many events and thoughts and much research. I did not come by this lightly.

When I was a missionary, I was trying to figure out how to convert people who believed differently than I. I reasoned that for someone who was Muslim or Hindu to accept that what I was telling them was correct they would first have to be willing to question their own beliefs. It was their passionate belief in something that I believed was wrong that kept them from embracing my message. I labored with that for a long time trying to come up with an effective way to get another person to just be willing to question their views.

Then one day I was walking along and it hit me like a thunderbolt. Was I willing to question my beliefs? How was I any different from a Muslim or Hindu? Once you believe that you have the truth then you stop looking. I made a commitment to find the truth no matter what that truth was. I made that commitment while I was a missionary. Little did I know that the commitment would eventually lead me to becomeing an atheist.

Also, I came accross a lot of very difficult questions that to this day are still very problematic. For instance, religion is largely a function of geography and familial ties. In other words, a person born in a region that is predominatnly Muslim has a high likelyhood of being a Muslim. A person born into a Muslim family has a high likelyhood of being a Muslim. Of course it's a double whammy if you are both.

Why? Why is god's plan so arbitrary? Why is god's plan so innefective? Most Muslims who hear the gospel don't convert. Is this really their fault? Social anthropologists tell us that the more a person goes to religious meetings, studies sacred scripture and prays the greater the faith of that person regardless of the faith. In fact, such adherence to religion leads can and does lead financially well off people to fly planes into buildings.

I've got hundreds of such questions and simple trite responses can't resolve them.