Is Atheism a Religion?

[TheKing]

if you break down the latin of the word...it spells out their belief right there

however...they can create a belief system and a life philosophy out of it without actually believing in a higher power...

and when you break different religions down...thats all they really are anyway is a belief system or a life philosophy

so im okay with giving their belief system the same rights and freedoms as any other religion

[virgo]

Oh no. Here we go again. :)

[Astra]

"Religion" to me implies that you worship something at some point, or recognize some kind of higher power. Atheism and agnosticism don't do either, so I think perhaps "belief" is a better term. Atheism is the belief there isn't a higher power.

Legally it makes sense that it is classified as a religion, even though I don't think most people would call it such in every day conversation. It should receive the same legal protection under the First Amendment. If you had a a street corner where a religious speaker was allowed to make a speech, while the atheist speaker was told to leave, that wouldn't be right. The two should either both be allowed to talk, or neither at all. And as much as I hate streetcorner soapboxes, I'd rather both of them have the freedom than neither ;)

[Booshay]

Just a thought....when an atheist gets pissed off at work or in traffic, do they scream "Jesus Christ! or Oh my God" at the idiot drivers like the rest of us do? It seems to me that they wouldnt if they dont believe in God or another higher being.

[dollfus46]

I know that there are a few members of our group who have said that they are atheists or tend more to agree with that line of thought. That got me to thinking - Is Atheism a Religion? Because I don't have an opinion on this, as of yet, I'd welcome the thoughts of our members. I am a professed Christian and my beliefs are different from atheists. But, this question is not meant to discuss opposing beliefs but to see what the thoughts are here.

I began researching and I've found 2 very differing opinions. In 2005, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that atheism IS a religion. You can read the brief summary of the case here.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45874

Then, I went to an atheist web site http://www.atheists.org/faqs/atheism.html and specifically this site says that this is contrary to the what atheists think and that it IS NOT a religion.

This would be an interesting debate - if we can stay on-topic and discuss the question that has been posed here.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but I couldn't care less what atheists believe or don't believe. They'd better hope it's not a religion, otherwise, they are imposing their religious beliefs on Christians in school, it would seem.

[Astra]

Just a thought....when an atheist gets pissed off at work or in traffic, do they scream "Jesus Christ! or Oh my God" at the idiot drivers like the rest of us do? It seems to me that they wouldnt if they dont believe in God or another higher being.
Depends on the person. I know people who usually take the idea of not taking the name in vain very seriously, but get them upset and it comes out. I think at this point it's a common enough phrase that many people use it without a lot of regard for what they are saying.

[SoMissTV]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but I couldn't care less what atheists believe or don't believe.

So why did you post in this thread if you don't care?

[PeteH]

Just a thought....when an atheist gets pissed off at work or in traffic, do they scream "Jesus Christ! or Oh my God" at the idiot drivers like the rest of us do? It seems to me that they wouldnt if they dont believe in God or another higher being.

Sure they would. In times like those, it's a cultural thing more than a spiritual thing.

[nooskye]

from what I have gatherd ... an anthiest questions the exsitance of both heaven and hell ... god and satan ... i might very well be wrong, but that is how my athiest brother describes it to me and my Catholic sister :D yeah ... we're a twisted family ... but to each one their own :D

[TheKing]

ill say this though...i have met a number of people who used to be atheist or have at the very least, shaky faith...

and at some point in their life...something dramatic happened, whether it be a near death experience, death of loved ones, etc etc...then they got right with god.

[nooskye]

living proof right here that this happens King!! :D one incident ... the same one btw that took him from my brother ... took God out of mine and another brought Him right back in!! Thank You God!!!! Now, please pray for my brother's return???

[Valkhorn]

I'm not sure how it could be classified as a religion.

As an Atheist, I do not worship anything, pray to anything, or go to any church for worship.

Also it is defined in most dictionaries as the absence of any religion or belief. So claiming Atheism as a religion would be like saying if you're not from Europe you're still a European.

[KingMaker]

I'm not sure how it could be classified as a religion.

As an Atheist, I do not worship anything, pray to anything, or go to any church for worship.

Also it is defined in most dictionaries as the absence of any religion or belief. So claiming Atheism as a religion would be like saying if you're not from Europe you're still a European.

I have made a point to stay out of the threads on Atheists and atheism. The main reason is that I don't want to be seen as a basher. I don't hold any ill will towards any of you. In fact I feel a great deal of sorrow in my heart for all of you.

Valkhorn has posed the question asking to what Atheists worship? It's a valid question, and I'll venture an answer.

The atheist worships whatever they hold most dear in their lives. Maybe it's family, maybe it's money, maybe it's achievement. It's whatever you fill the void in your life with.

I can't answer that question for you directly, because I don't know you. But, if you think about it, your god is whatever you hold most dear.

I will continue to pray for each of you...

[PeteH]

I've given this a little thought. When I lived in disbelief, I was fervent about my disbelief. In other words, I had faith that there was no need for religion.

I also had a few other tenants of religion:

Higher power = science and logic

Doctrines = evolution, global warming, humanism, etc.

There are prophets as well. Scientists are both the prophets and high priests of atheism as they aim to explain things in order to predict and eventually control them.

They worship science. The original idea in worship is to simply show respect to a higher authority and this is definately the case with atheists and science. They both pay homage to science and are devoted to science.

It seems to me that atheism shares many commonalities with other religions.

This doesn't apply to vast majority of atheists I know personally. Most of them don't give two hoots about affirming their lack of belief or science. They simply live their lives the way everyone else does... except without a religious belief. In fact, I find it incredibly difficult to distiguish between the people I know who are religious and the people I know who aren't. Nobody makes a big deal out of it.

I think it's not so much a commonality of beliefs or lack of beliefs, but a case of individual personality.

[PeteH]

I don't hold any ill will towards any of you. In fact I feel a great deal of sorrow in my heart for all of you.

This does come across like contempt. Why feel sorrow for atheists?

I think as long as anyone feels comfortable with what they believe, feeling pity or contempt for them is misguided.

[onlyme]

[quote=Queen Mother;226592] Is Atheism a Religion? Because I don't have an opinion on this, as of yet, I'd welcome the thoughts of our members. I am a professed Christian and my beliefs are different from atheists. But, this question is not meant to discuss opposing beliefs but to see what the thoughts are here.
quote]

When I graduated in 1985 in Germany, one of my 4 major testing subjects was religion and the final exam was about atheism. I am not sure if I personally view atheism as a religion but then I also have a hard time seeing scientology as a religion.

[KingMaker]

This does come across like contempt. Why feel sorrow for atheists?

I think as long as anyone feels comfortable with what they believe, feeling pity or contempt for them is misguided.


Well Pete, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Because, I feel a burden for all who don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Weather they're looking or want one or not. I will continue to pray for them and hope that a door is opened in their hearts.

I don't understand how a person can believe that it's all over when we die and that we don't have a soul that will live on forever. I can't fathom that myself. I am sure that there are those that think I am simple, uneducated and quite dim-witted because of my faith.

[Fish-Bait]

Aethesim is not a religion, it's is just a numb thought process.

[PeteH]

Well Pete, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Because, I feel a burden for all who don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Weather they're looking or want one or not. I will continue to pray for them and hope that a door is opened in their hearts.

Why does it bother you that other people don't believe as you believe? Can't you just accept the fact that different people think differently?

I don't understand how a person can believe that it's all over when we die and that we don't have a soul that will live on forever. I can't fathom that myself.

*shrug* Likewise, there are people who can't fathom what you believe.

I am sure that there are those that think I am simple, uneducated and quite dim-witted because of my faith.

Probably. Just like you feel pity or contempt for atheists, there are atheists that feel likewise for Christians. Different sides of the same coin.

[Astra]

Well Pete, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Because, I feel a burden for all who don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Weather they're looking or want one or not. I will continue to pray for them and hope that a door is opened in their hearts.

I don't understand how a person can believe that it's all over when we die and that we don't have a soul that will live on forever. I can't fathom that myself. I am sure that there are those that think I am simple, uneducated and quite dim-witted because of my faith.
This is what people aren't getting. Some Christians feel sorry for atheists because they feel like they are missing out on something, but some atheists feel the exact same way about Christians!

Personally, I don't think there's anything to feel sorry about, or to pity others for. If you have ideals that make you happy and make you feel like you have a fulfilling life, then that should be all that matters.

[PeteH]

Personally, I don't think there's anything to feel sorry about, or to pity others for. If you have ideals that make you happy and make you feel like you have a fulfilling life, then that should be all that matters.

Exactly.

[KingMaker]

Well Pete, Astra.....once again we'll just have to agree to disagree. This is why I tried to stay out of threads like this. But, since I didn't trust my own better judgement, I guess I got what I asked for....

[Astra]

Don't apologize. I was kind of hoping this thread would be more of a "let's try to understand each other" thing instead of a "you're wrong and I'm right" thing.

[KingMaker]

Don't apologize. I was kind of hoping this thread would be more of a "let's try to understand each other" thing instead of a "you're wrong and I'm right" thing.

Oh, please don't think that I was apologizing for the way I feel, because I certainly wasn't.

[Astra]

Oh, please don't think that I was apologizing for the way I feel, because I certainly wasn't.
Uh, I'm sorry, I must have misread your post. I thought you were showing regret for visiting this thread, and that I was sorry you felt that was a bad thing.

[nooskye]

In an attempt to understand one another ... :clap: yay btw ...

Do Atheist celebrate Christmas or Easter??? Do they say stuff like "Dear God" or "Jesus Christ" when they are upset at something??? I think I may have read that question before on here, so sorry if I swiped it ... but I haven't seen a response ... *IF* they do ... how is that justified ... if they don't believe in anything???

I promise, I'm not trying to aggrivate the situation AT ALL ... my brother is an Athiest and I respect and love him AND his non-beliefs ... funny thing is though ... my mom MAKES him celebrate these Holidays with us ... and he does without complaint ... I was just wondering if other Athiests did the same ... ??? ...

*Edit* ... had another question ... when two people come together and a child is born ... do they hold that child as a blessing or a gift ... what are your thoughts on this???

[Astra]

Not necessarily just atheists, but I think a lot of people who aren't Christians celebrate Christian holidays. I know people get upset about the idea of excluding Christ from Christmas, but it's still possible to celebrate the ideals of goodwill and generosity with your family without being an observant Christian. Exclusion isn't even necessary - even if you don't necessarily believe Christ existed, or do not accept him as a savior, one could still believe in the values he promoted and incorporate the Christmas story into your observance.

It all depends on the person. Some atheists don't want anything to do with anything religious in nature, and others may celebrate but without heavy religious connotations. Even with churchgoing people you'll find that kind of variance. For a lot of the Christian holidays, it's almost like there are two versions - the traditional Christian one involving church services, and the secular traditions.

[Quark]

Hi all,

Newbie here.

First let me say that I respect people of faith.

That said, no, atheism is not a religion. Atheism is simply the absence of theistic belief. Some argue that it is a belief that there is no god. I suppose for some that it is. However, I believe there is no god the way I believe that there are no leprechauns or fairies. Now, I realize that could be seen as belittling to some and I apologize. It's not meant to be. I realize that belief in god to many is important and I don't mean to diminish that belief. I only want you to understand my world view. To me the notion that my not believing in something is a religion is silly.

It's not something that has much bearing on my life in any profound way. I grew up deeply religious and I know what it is to have faith. I know what it is to be religious. Atheism isn't it. I don't care that there is no god.

[Quark]

Do Atheist celebrate Christmas or Easter???There are many cultural Catholic, cultural Jews and cutlural Chstians. I'm a cultural Christian. I celebrate holidays. I was raised with them and they are engrained in me. I like them.

Do they say stuff like "Dear God" or "Jesus Christ" when they are upset at something??? I think I may have read that question before on here, so sorry if I swiped it ... but I haven't seen a response ... *IF* they do ... how is that justified ... if they don't believe in anything??? "Justified"? What do you mean? I don't use such terms often but on occasion I do but only in a silly way or when I'm cursing. I don't think anyone is listening or cares. I should say that I became a deist before I became atheist. Actually I was agnotic before I was an atheist but that's a trifle. I stopped believing that god had any care whatsoever in our personal lives long before I realized that there simply was no god.

*Edit* ... had another question ... when two people come together and a child is born ... do they hold that child as a blessing or a gift ... what are your thoughts on this???I had my children when I was still a believer. If I had a child today I would think it incredible and awsome and everything else that accompanies such a wonderful occasion. Not a gift though.

[Quark]

The beliefs of atheists and agnostics are that there is or is not a God and ethics do not necessarily matter. Forgive me if someone else has dealt with this but ethics are very important to atheists.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get such a notion?

[Valkhorn]

Forgive me if someone else has dealt with this but ethics are very important to atheists.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get such a notion?

I am wondering that myself.

[nooskye]

There are many cultural Catholic, cultural Jews and cutlural Chstians. I'm a cultural Christian. I celebrate holidays. I was raised with them and they are engrained in me. I like them.

"Justified"? What do you mean? I don't use such terms often but on occasion I do but only in a silly way or when I'm cursing. I don't think anyone is listening or cares. I should say that I became a deist before I became atheist. Actually I was agnotic before I was an atheist but that's a trifle. I stopped believing that god had any care whatsoever in our personal lives long before I realized that there simply was no god.

I had my children when I was still a believer. If I had a child today I would think it incredible and awsome and everything else that accompanies such a wonderful occasion. Not a gift though.

I appreciate your response Quark ... and welcome to the boards ...

what I meant by justified was ... some people of faith do not (rightfully) speak their God's or His Son's name in vain ... but more like calling out for help in a particular situation ... having a belief that if the faith is held and we turn to Them for guidence, then it would be given ... the whole "Ask and Ye Shall Receive" ... ???? ...

[Astra]

I missed the ethics bit myself - ethics don't HAVE to come from a religious source, although many do and most religions have some kind of code built into them. That's not even my opinion, that's straight from my ethics text book. Just because someone doesn't belong to a particular religion does not make them devoid of a sense of ethical behavior.

[Quark]

I appreciate your response Quark ... and welcome to the boards ... Thanks.

what I meant by justified was ... some people of faith do not (rightfully) speak their God's or His Son's name in vain ... but more like calling out for help in a particular situation ... having a belief that if the faith is held and we turn to Them for guidence, then it would be given ... the whole "Ask and Ye Shall Receive" ... ???? ...I suppose we take his name in vain like many who are believers. God knows I took his name in vain when I was a believer.

ETA: I tried to put a wink smilie at the end of the last sentence but I couldn't. Must be a conspiracy.

[nooskye]

ETA: I tried to put a wink smilie at the end of the last sentence but I couldn't. Must be a conspiracy.

Nope ... no conspiracy :-D Thanks again for your post, but I'm not sure if I am coherant in what I am trying to say or not ... ??? ... let's try it this way ... in a moment of desperation or strife ... do Atheist "reach out" to something or someone for understanding or direction or comfort ... something or someone that is not visible ... or maybe just inside their own minds ... do y'all search for inner security and / or stability of which the World itself cannot grant you ... ??? ...

[Quark]

... in a moment of desperation or strife ... do Atheist "reach out" to something or someone for understanding or direction or comfort ... something or someone that is not visible ... I can't speak for all atheists but as for me and those that I know, no.

or maybe just inside their own minds ... do y'all search for inner security and / or stability of which the World itself cannot grant you ... ??? ...Yes, and that is where it always was. I solved my problems when I was a believer the same way I do now. I contemplate and use my intuition. Prayer focuses a person. I can do that without prayer.

Belief in god can bring comfort. It can't bring me comfort because I don't believe in god. My mother does and it helps her. That's fine. If it helps you I'm happy with it but I don't need it and I would find it, for myself, a bit like having a security blanket. An embodiment of something secure that I can project my feelings on. Let me be careful here and say that I know that I'm treading on thin ice. I'm not intending to patronize or offend. That's just how I would see it for myself. I don't have negative thoughts about others relying on faith to get them through difficult times. We each have to find our way through life and what ever gets one through is ok by me.

[nooskye]

I can't speak for all atheists but as for me and those that I know, no.

Yes, and that is where it always was. I solved my problems when I was a believer the same way I do now. I contemplate and use my intuition. Prayer focuses a person. I can do that without prayer.

Belief in god can bring comfort. It can't bring me comfort because I don't believe in god. My mother does and it helps her. That's fine. If it helps you I'm happy with it but I don't need it and I would find it, for myself, a bit like having a security blanket. An embodiment of something secure that I can project my feelings on. Let me be careful here and say that I know that I'm treading on thin ice. I'm not intending to patronize or offend. That's just how I would see it for myself. I don't have negative thoughts about others relying on faith to get them through difficult times. We each have to find our way through life and what ever gets one through is ok by me.

I sincerely tried to give you your very first + rep for this post Quark ... but I'm all out for now :D I believe that if the conversation can continue to be carried out in a civilized manner then there is no thin ice to worry about ... I have asked valid questions and you have given valid responses ... I do not hold your non-belief against you, just like I'm sure you don't hold my belief of Him against me ... it's constructive and appreciated ... thank you.

One more question and I promise I will leave your brain alone tonight ... this morning rather :smt118 ... where do you believe your intuition comes from???? A sixth sense, if you will ... I believe (and this is where some may think I am more of a flake than I let on to be :D) but in my head ... my intuition is God's way of telling me what I need to know ... take my "mother's intuition" for example ... somehow ... I always just KNOW when one of my babies need me ... be it physically, mentally or emotionally ... haha .. or how bout the "cheating lover" intuition ... where does that sense come from?? How does one just simply know ... ??? ...

[dollfus46]

So why did you post in this thread if you don't care?
1. It's my opinion and 2. Because I can.

[Quark]

... my intuition is God's way of telling me what I need to know ... take my "mother's intuition" for example ... somehow ... I always just KNOW when one of my babies need me ... be it physically, mentally or emotionally ... haha .. or how bout the "cheating lover" intuition ... where does that sense come from?? How does one just simply know ... ??? ...Intuition is a lifetime of experiences that our subconcious draws on to help us make decisions. It's well studied and understood. A person trained in a particular field will have better intuition than a lay person. A grand chess player who forgoes thinking ahead more than a couple of moves can play better intuitively than a person who is not a grand master.

Our intuition can and often enough does fail us. The Monty Hall Problem illustrates that perfectly. I can't post links but you can google that if you want.

As for your mother, she is engaging in conformation bias. In the past this was a problem for science. This is the reasoning behind double blind studies.

[aaron]

Atheists have gods, they are called scientists, and their bible is the laws of science. I bet 99% of them have never picked up a skull of cro-magnon man out of the earth, but they believe it when someone tells them they have. They have faith that scientific theory is fact. They have faith that dinosaurs once roamed the earth and that God didn't create these bones just like he created everything else. They also have faith that one day, someone will tell them how the entire universe was created. How something came from nothing.

[Quark]

Atheists have gods, they are called scientists, and their bible is the laws of science. I bet 99% of them have never picked up a skull of cro-magnon man out of the earth, but they believe it when someone tells them they have. They have faith that scientific theory is fact. They have faith that dinosaurs once roamed the earth and that God didn't create these bones just like he created everything else. They also have faith that one day, someone will tell them how the entire universe was created. How something came from nothing.Hi aaron, thanks for your post.

The strength of science is that it eschews dogma and absolutes. In the end only the best models of the natural world are relied on to understand the natural world. When a new model comes along that is better at explaining the natural world then it is eventually adopted. I say eventually because new ideas must go through a rigorous process to weed out spurious ones.

I've never been in outer space nor have I circumnavigated the globe in a plane so my belief that earth is a sphere is just that. A belief based on the logic and observations of others.

Is the belief reasonable? What are my options? Given the available evidence, logic and testimony of others it is not reasonable to believe that the earth is flat or a cube.

I don't know if we will ever know all of the mysteries of the universe. I suspect that Frederick J. Barnett is right when he said "For my part I know nothing with any certainty, ... the Universe in not only queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we CAN imagine.

As for god, bones and the great dinosaur hoax perpetrated by a just god, when I was a believer I was forced to rule out the notion that god was deceiving humans since the bible tells us that the father of all lies is the devil.

[PeteH]

Atheists have gods, they are called scientists, and their bible is the laws of science. I bet 99% of them have never picked up a skull of cro-magnon man out of the earth, but they believe it when someone tells them they have. They have faith that scientific theory is fact. They have faith that dinosaurs once roamed the earth and that God didn't create these bones just like he created everything else. They also have faith that one day, someone will tell them how the entire universe was created. How something came from nothing.

This is a rather silly statement. By this reasoning, virtually anything and everything outside of our immediate expertise can be coined "faith" and anyone who is an expert are our "gods". Do I have "faith" in my physics professor when they tell me about electrons and neutrons? Do I have "faith" in a cartographer when they tell me places like Japan, Bermuda and France are facts, even though I've never been? Do I have faith in a historian when they talk to me about World War I? After I all, *I* wasn't there.

Really, all you've done is dilute the term "faith" until it becomes all-inclusive.

[aaron]

I think I'm making faith a scientific term for those that don't believe in the unscientific. You have not sensed everything you believe. So, you have faith that they exist. That it's not a hoax. Is it an exaggeration to prove a point? Yes, much like ignoring million year gaps in evolution to prove it's a fact.

[Quark]

I think I'm making faith a scientific term for those that don't believe in the unscientific. You have not sensed everything you believe. So, you have faith that they exist. That it's not a hoax. Is it an exaggeration to prove a point? Yes, much like ignoring million year gaps in evolution to prove it's a fact.I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't have faith that Mohammad rode to heaven on a winged horse. One is reasonable the other is not. I have faith that the world is a sphere though I've never proven it. It's reasonable to have faith that the world is a sphere based on the copious amounts of evidence and the lack of any significant data in opposition to that faith.

[Quark]

Is it an exaggeration to prove a point? Yes, much like ignoring million year gaps in evolution to prove it's a fact.The evidence to support evolution is simply too great to ignore. I will refer you to the evolution thread for the discussion.

[aaron]

Your using odds though. There is a 10 billion to 1 chance that an asteroid will hit the earth tonight and the sun won't rise tomorrow. What are the odds of something being untrue if 95% of the world believes it to be true? You use that argument on evolution, why not here? Because that 95% doesn't use scientific methods to back up their beliefs? Again, putting your faith in science.

[nooskye]

As for your mother, she is engaging in conformation bias. In the past this was a problem for science. This is the reasoning behind double blind studies.

no offense Quark, because I did enjoy our chat :D ... but I wasn't speaking of *my* mother ... I was speaking of my own, personal "mother's intuition" ... for instance (and this is a true account, btw) ... if my newborn is laying in her crib and I get this horrible feeling that runs from my throat to my stomach and every fiber of me is saying ... "hey, there's something wrong, go see" ... and I go to check on her and she *isn't* breathing ... that, to me, was my intuition telling me that there's something wrong with my baby ... I just simply knew. When the ambulance got to our house and we got her to the ER ... her fever had spiked at 104.7 from a case of pneumonia (that btw settled into her system during the six hours she was attempting to sleep the night before; meaning there was no warning of an infection, it hit her hard ... all at once, with both barrels) within the 30 minutes it took to get from 84W to Laurel's hospital ... it shut her body down and she began to sieze ... her pedi told me that if I would have ignored what I was feeling, and let her be, like her donor wanted me to ... she'd be dead right now ... and that is what I meant by intuition ... the sense of KNOWING something's wrong (or right) BEFORE the oportunity presents itself to discover in real time, so to speak ... where does THAT sense come from??? I had never been a mother before then ... as a matter of fact, up until two weeks before I got pregnant, (ironically enough ... as an Atheist) I swore that I would NEVER bring a child into this God-Forsaken World ... Harsh? I know ... but the truth, none the less ... and now I have three ... all of which are their own little blessings in disguise.

I listen to my intuition ("God speaking" ... referrenced in a previous post) ... and it has yet to fail me ... now, whether I choose to accept what it is saying or not ... that's a completely different story ... I am human afterall ... and a bit hard headed at times ... but it's there, none the less ... all the time ... telling me ... guiding me ... :D

[Quark]

Your using odds though. Not quite that simple but to a point yes.

What are the odds of something being untrue if 95% of the world believes it to be true? That is argument ad populum. It's a fallacy. I can't post links but you can google it.

You use that argument on evolution, why not here? Because that 95% doesn't use scientific methods to back up their beliefs? Again, putting your faith in science. Your logic is circular. I don't simply put my faith in science. I don't hold to any scientific tenant dogmatically. I'm willing to question every single axiom and in fact I do in philosophical discussion to test the limits of first priciples.

So, first we find first principles and then build upon that foundation using logic and reason with the willingness to question each and ever assumption.

[Quark]

no offense Quark, because I did enjoy our chat ... but I wasn't speaking of *my* mother ... I was speaking of my own, personal "mother's intuition" ... for instance (and this is a true account, btw) ... if my newborn is laying in her crib and I get this horrible feeling that runs from my throat to my stomach and every fiber of me is saying ... "hey, there's something wrong, go see" ... and I go to check on her and she *isn't* breathing ... that, to me, was my intuition telling me that there's something wrong with my baby ... I just simply knew. When the ambulance got to our house and we got her to the ER ... her fever had spiked at 104.7 from a case of pneumonia (that btw settled into her system during the six hours she was attempting to sleep the night before; meaning there was no warning of an infection, it hit her hard ... all at once, with both barrels) within the 30 minutes it took to get from 84W to Laurel's hospital ... it shut her body down and she began to sieze ... her pedi told me that if I would have ignored what I was feeling, and let her be, like her donor wanted me to ... she'd be dead right now ... and that is what I meant by intuition ... the sense of KNOWING something's wrong (or right) BEFORE the oportunity presents itself to discover in real time, so to speak ... where does THAT sense come from??? Some of it is inate and some of it is based on a lifetime of experiences. You can't deduce that none of your life had any bearing for that event. In any event, if you keep a log and count the hits and misses you will find that it is not perfect. Intuition is a well researched and understood phenomenon. There is no mystery here and when scientists focus on it they see that it is not perfect and those who think it perfect or near perfect count the hits and disregard the misses.

I listen to my intuition ("God speaking" ... referrenced in a previous post) ... and it has yet to fail me ... now, whether I choose to accept what it is saying or not ... that's a completely different story ... I am human afterall ... and a bit hard headed at times ... but it's there, none the less ... all the time ... telling me ... guiding me ... I have intuition also and I don't believe in god. I understand the basis for intuition so it is no great mystery to me.

If you took an online test to gauge your intuition how well do you think you would do? 100%? 50%? Tell me and then tell me why you think what you do?

[Quark]

Quark, have you shared your knowledge of logical fallacies with Valkhorn?I think you are more than competent to do so. If I think it necessary I might. I take such issues on a case by case basis.

[amanda]

Quark, have you shared your knowledge of logical fallacies with Valkhorn?


Come on, Doc. You know Quark is one of the many friends Valkhorn had to call on to come here and enlighten us right? He has a whole thread dedicated to us on the christianforums website. He couldn't handle the heat on his own so he asked for "help" from all his buddies.

[Quark]

Come on, Doc. You know Quark is one of the many friends Valkhorn had to call on to come here and enlighten us right? He has a whole thread dedicated to us on the christianforums website. He couldn't handle the heat on his own so he asked for "help" from all his buddies.I can tell you with all honesty that I don't know who Valkhorn is. I will also tell you that I discovered this site lurking on another and saw someone discussing the debate about evolution. I decided to post here because I was quite impressed with the level of discussion and decorum. Though some of you might disagree there is actually a relatively high degree of civility. That's quite remarkable.

If anyone feels that my presence here is unwelcome then let me know. I would take that into consideration and I'm willing to respect the sentiment of others especially those who have helped shape this community. I value that and think you have a right to that community.

I'm not here with any illusions. I just thought this a good place to share my POV.

Thanks,

Quark

[Conveyor Belt]

I bet 99% of them have never picked up a skull of cro-magnon man out of the earth, but they believe it when someone tells them they have.

And 100% of Christians never met the men who wrote the Bible or saw the events described within. Yet they have faith that what their mothers and preachers and heart is telling them is true. Faith works all kinds of ways...

[nooskye]

If you took an online test to gauge your intuition how well do you think you would do? 100%? 50%? Tell me and then tell me why you think what you do?


But Quark ... I have already explained why I think what I do ... I don't believe that I need a test or a scientist for that matter to determine if what my "gut" is telling me is the truth or not ... I know what and how I feel at any given point of time ... in different situations and for different reasonings and causes ... now, like I said ... sometimes ... I choose NOT to heed the "feeling" (that warning, if you will) ... for one reason or the other ... and I pay for it (that's called Karma btw :smt118 ) ... but I always know (aka self-awareness) ... regardless of whatever decisive action I choose to or not to take (and that's called free will) ... I can't specifically explain it to you, because it is in fact a feeling that I alone have, it is *mine* unique to only me ... just as yours is to you ... lol! just ask my husband ... he knows ALL about it :D he has a very strong one as well ...

whatever the case ... can I ask a favor of you ... not your scientists, not your buddies, well ... yeah your buddies too ... because I'd like to have *their* POV as well ... can we please drop all of the mumbo-jumbo "big girl" words ... and cut it back to how you alone think and feel ... real world chit chat for a real world *community* discussion???? Only because, like you have said many of times ... I can google all of this information ... I can't google you and yours :D

[aaron]

And 100% of Christians never met the men who wrote the Bible or saw the events described within. Yet they have faith that what their mothers and preachers and heart is telling them is true. Faith works all kinds of ways...

That's correct. The difference is, I don't need scientific evidence to back everything up. I'm fine with taking your "testimony" that it happened. Atheists are not, so why don't they apply this to everything they believe?

[Quark]

And 100% of Christians never met the men who wrote the Bible or saw the events described within. Yet they have faith that what their mothers and preachers and heart is telling them is true. Faith works all kinds of ways...Sure but we should be careful about what we mean by faith. There is blind faith that is not based on sound deductive or inductive reasoning and there is faith that is.

I only subscribe to faith that is grounded in deductive or inductive reasoning. I can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow but I believe that it will. That belief is based on objective observation and inductive reasoning. Let me note that my basis for belief is shared by most if not all reasonable people. That Christ was crucified and arose from the dead is not. There are many reasonable Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others who have looked at the belief and rejected it. They cling to the beliefs that their mothers taught them.

I don't simply accept what my mother taught me. I question my assumptions and seek objective criteria and use inductive reasoning to arrive at most if not all of my beliefs.

[nooskye]

... I'm not here with any illusions. I just thought this a good place to share my POV...

And it is ... and IMO, a welcomed discussion ... so long as everyone agrees to be as open minded and respectful as they expect their counter parts to be ...

[nooskye]

Sure but we should be careful about what we mean by faith. There is blind faith that is not based on sound deductive or inductive reasoning and there is faith that is.

I only subscribe to faith that is grounded in deductive or inductive reasoning. I can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow but I believe that it will. That belief is based on objective observation and inductive reasoning. Let me note that my basis for belief is shared by most if not all reasonable people. That Christ was crucified and arose from the dead is not. There are many reasonable Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others who have looked at the belief and rejected it. They cling to the beliefs that their mothers taught them.

I don't simply accept what my mother taught me. I question my assumptions and seek objective criteria and use inductive reasoning to arrive at most if not all of my beliefs.

so, you don't leave anything to sheer chance????

[Quark]

That's correct. The difference is, I don't need scientific evidence to back everything up. I'm fine with taking your "testimony" that it happened. Atheists are not, so why don't they apply this to everything they believe? I don't understand your question. Apply what to everything we believe? Testimony?

Muslims testify to their religious experiences. So do Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc. Why should I not become a Muslim?

[Quark]

so, you don't leave anything to sheer chance???? I'm not sure I understand the question. I occasionally play the lottery. Could you give me some examples of where you leave something to sheer chance?

[nooskye]

uummm .... love? ... life? ... an encounter of some sorts? ... understanding? ... friendship? ... trust? ... lol! just about any and every other situation one *couldn't* use science as a basis to prove one way or the other of its exsitence ...

Outside of materialistic items ... do you ever just throw your hands up in the air and say to yourself ... let the chips fall where they may??? I have faith (or ... am sure ... certian ... believe, etc. (they all mean the same thing) ) that it will turn out right??? (not meaning you *should* of course ... just an analogy)

[aaron]

I don't understand your question. Apply what to everything we believe? Testimony?

Muslims testify to their religious experiences. So do Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc. Why should I not become a Muslim?

Apply first-hand use of the senses to verify something exists. Not just the testimony of another person.

[Quark]

But Quark ... I have already explained why I think what I do ... I don't believe that I need a test or a scientist for that matter to determine if what my "gut" is telling me is the truth or not ... I understand and respect that. I just don't share your view. I understand what intuition is from a scientific perspective and there is no great mystery there.

I know what and how I feel at any given point of time ... in different situations and for different reasonings and causes ... now, like I said ... sometimes ... I choose NOT to heed the "feeling" (that warning, if you will) ... for one reason or the other ... and I pay for it (that's called Karma btw :smt118 ) ... but I always know (aka self-awareness) ... regardless of whatever decisive action I choose to or not to take (and that's called free will) ... I can't specifically explain it to you, because it is in fact a feeling that I alone have, it is *mine* unique to only me ... just as yours is to you ... lol! just ask my husband ... he knows ALL about it :D he has a very strong one as well ... I can't debate your personal experience. I can't get inside your head and analyze your feelings. I can only tell you what I know and what I experience and why a scientific perspective is helpful to understanding intuition.

whatever the case ... can I ask a favor of you ... not your scientists, not your buddies, well ... yeah your buddies too ... because I'd like to have *their* POV as well ... can we please drop all of the mumbo-jumbo "big girl" words ... and cut it back to how you alone think and feel ... real world chit chat for a real world *community* discussion???? Only because, like you have said many of times ... I can google all of this information ... I can't google you and yours :D I appreciate the request and I will do my best to accommodate but I have to be honest to myself as well as others. My basis for viewing the world is shaped by my adherence to skepticism, critical thinking and the scientific method.

As to words and language, I belong to a number of science and philosophy forums and my work takes me into areas that use esoteric (big girl) language. I honestly am not certain which words you object to, though I have some suspicions, I will try and dial it back a bit.

That said, words are wonderful things. They empower us and enlarge our horizons. Take the opportunity to learn the words. I keep a permanent browser open to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) and www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.org) all of the time. Knowledge is power.

[Quark]

Apply first-hand use of the senses to verify something exists. Not just the testimony of another person.My first-hand use of my senses tells me that god does not exist.

[Quark]

uummm .... love? ... life? ... an encounter of some sorts? ... understanding? ... friendship? ... trust? ... lol! just about any and every other situation one *couldn't* use science as a basis to prove one way or the other of its exsitence ... You are speaking to one who has spent years discussing and debating such philosophical questions. You yourself might not exist but might in fact simply be part of an elaborate part of an illusion that I'm experiencing. We might all be brains in a vat or part of a computer simulation. Since what I think of as reality is only perceived in my mind then there is no way to know absolutely anything, except as Descartes so famously pointed out, that I am (I think therefore I exist).

Terms I intentionally avoided but you might want to look up:

Existentialism
Solipsism
Epiphenomena

Outside of materialistic items ... :) "Materialistic"? I like it.

...do you ever just throw your hands up in the air and say to yourself ... let the chips fall where they may??? I have faith (or ... am sure ... certian ... believe, etc. (they all mean the same thing) ) that it will turn out right??? (not meaning you *should* of course ... just an analogy)Yes, of course, I rely on my intuition when it is all I have to rely on.

[B.T. Justice]

My first-hand use of my senses tells me that god does not exist.
How sad!

[aaron]

My first-hand use of my senses tells me that god does not exist.

That's correct. However, you have not used your senses to verify that most of the things you believe are true. Since you've never seen cro-magnon man, you assume it exists. This is an extreme example, but I believe there is a double standard. When you argue with a theist over the existence of God, you limit them to scientific methods for doing so.

[Quark]

Quark, I like you. Thank you, I like you also.

Do you think that eye witness testimony that is replicated across many people provides reliable evidence to support certain claims, such as historical events and such? I'm willing to give it weight. I don't see historical evidence in a simple dichotomy of true or false. While propositions are either true or false the evidence supporting what is true and false is not always so clear.

There are many Hindus who will testify as to their having witnessed things that bear witness to the truth of their beliefs. Likewise for Muslims and Sikhs. How should I judge such evidence?

I will answer you directly. I employ skepticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism) and critical thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Thinking) when judging such evidence. I use parsimony (Ockham's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor)) and an understanding of psychology and the many reasons why people believe things in order to judge the validity or likelihood of such events.

I hope that helps.

[Quark]

That's correct. However, you have not used your senses to verify that most of the things you believe are true. Since you've never seen cro-magnon man, you assume it exists. This is an extreme example, but I believe there is a double standard. When you argue with a theist over the existence of God, you limit them to scientific methods for doing so.This is not the case. I don't hold a dogmatic position on any single piece of evolutionary evidence. I'm perfectly willing to hold the belief that any evidence could be wrong. It's the weight of all of the evidence. It's the fact that based on phenotype studies science made predictions years before Darwin. It's that the predictions were shown time and again through objective fact to be true.

I'll quote my personal favorite prediction. Following the discovery of DNA by Crick and Watson it was predicted that the genetics would bear out that transcription errors that result from the recombination of DNA would only be common to species that were related and all that were so related.

In other words, chimpanzees and humans would share transcription errors that birds would not. Any transcription errors shared by humans and birds must be shared by chimpanzees.

It's always the case that it is so. Even one example that deviated from the prediction made before the study began would fatally doom evolution.

The truth is that the job of scientists is to try and falsify hypothesis. They actually try and disprove evolution. Most people don't know that. The same is true of the fossil record. Science is not simply itnerpeting data. It's logically analyzing data and then setting out to falsify the data.

That's the strength of science and it is why we could send humans to the moon.

[dollfus46]

By this reasoning, virtually anything and everything outside of our immediate expertise can be coined "faith" After all, *I* wasn't there.

That's what I've been tellin' ya, Cowboy. Instead of playing crescendo with phrases and words, it comes down to faith. Because if you had proof, there wouldn't be a division within the scientific community. As it is, by your own admission, some of your cohorts/peers disagree with you. That'd tend to mean they side with us, by process of elimination. That's a mathmatical process instead of a biological one. :)

[Quark]

Questions:

1. Do you believe that the Apostles were liars? Did they fabricate this elaborate story about the resurrection of Christ? If so, why? What was their gain?

2. Do you believe Paul was a liar? Again, what was the gain for him, especially when considering what he lost?

3. Do you believe that Paul was delusional and experienced a hallucination? If so, why do we not have other reports of mental instablity?

I don't know if Paul lied, was delusional or simply sincerely wrong. Assuming any of these things he could have done so in the hopes of gaining a following and influence. Given that David Koresh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh) who was certain that he was going to die and given Heaven's Gate's Applewhite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(cult)) who planned to die and Jim Jones (http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_jones.htm) who orchestrated the death of he and his followers and many, many other examples it's hardly a stretch to believe that a good number of possibilities exist. Paul didn't know for a fact that what the outcome was going to be and even if he had, like David Koresh and Applewhite he chose his path for any number of reasons.

Parsimony would dictate that Paul was just another David Koresh, Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite.

[aaron]

This is not the case. I don't hold a dogmatic position on any single piece of evolutionary evidence. I'm perfectly willing to hold the belief that any evidence could be wrong. It's the weight of all of the evidence. It's the fact that based on phenotype studies science made predictions years before Darwin. It's that the predictions were shown time and again through objective fact to be true.

I'll quote my personal favorite prediction. Following the discovery of DNA by Crick and Watson it was predicted that the genetics would bear out that transcription errors that result from the recombination of DNA would only be common to species that were related and all that were so related.

In other words, chimpanzees and humans would share transcription errors that birds would not. Any transcription errors shared by humans and birds must be shared by chimpanzees.

It's always the case that it is so. Even one example that deviated from the prediction made before the study began would fatally doom evolution.

The truth is that the job of scientists is to try and falsify hypothesis. They actually try and disprove evolution. Most people don't know that. The same is true of the fossil record. Science is not simply itnerpeting data. It's logically analyzing data and then setting out to falsify the data.

That's the strength of science and it is why we could send humans to the moon.

Right, it could all be wrong. So, open the argument up to more than scientific methodology. "Prove it" should not be thrown out, but shouldn't be a requirement. If so, your limiting yourself to only one part of what makes a human a human, and it's the part that shares itself with the animals.

[dollfus46]

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't have faith that Mohammad rode to heaven on a winged horse. One is reasonable the other is not. I have faith that the world is a sphere though I've never proven it. It's reasonable to have faith that the world is a sphere based on the copious amounts of evidence and the lack of any significant data in opposition to that faith.

I thought we paid billions to get pitchures from lunar craft. We even proved the moon is not made of cheese. They use video cameras on the Court Channel to prove the bad guy did it. You'd think those expensive cameras they put on those space ships would do the trick.

[Quark]

That's what I've been tellin' ya, Cowboy. Instead of playing crescendo with phrases and words, it comes down to faith. Because if you had proof, there wouldn't be a division within the scientific community. As it is, by your own admission, some of your cohorts/peers disagree with you. That'd tend to mean they side with us, by process of elimination. That's a mathmatical process instead of a biological one. :) Science fosters scrutiny and peer-review. It's a healthy basis for science and not a reason to attack it. Let's keep a perspective here. Red shift was once controversial but now it no longer is. The solar wind was once controversial but now it no longer is. As the opponents grapple and fight the truth emerges and science adds precepts and theories to it's body or it rejects them and moves on. No one is going back and arguing against germ theory. Why? There is no reason to. It's settled.

Faith? Do you follow your Doctor's advice on faith alone? Do you think his advice is as good as Sylvia Browne's (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/) who dispenses medical advice and is believed by many to be clairvoyant? Would you rely on medieval medical advice or modern scientific theory to treat your diabetes if you had it?

[dollfus46]

I have intuition also and I don't believe in god.

WHOA! LET ME WIPE THE SURPRISED LOOK OFF OF MY FACE.:)

[Quark]

That logic might hold if it were not for the fact that Paul already had a following and power and influence. Parismony is blown to the wind to assert that he went to all this trouble and pain in order to gain something he already had.But we don't really know do we? You know for a fact that he didn't have reason to believe he was on the way out? You assume much for knowing so little. But let's assume for a moment that you are correct. Native Americans, Buddhists and others report a well studied scientific phenomenon. The Native Americans call it a vision-quest. Dr. Susan Blackmore (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/) who experienced such a state and who at first attributed it to a religious experience explains how the event can be so life changing and how it is typical for those who have experienced this phenomenon to believe that they were in the presence of god.

If we assume that Paul was not on the way out and losing his political influence why can't we assume that he had a vision quest or was delusional like Koresh, Jones or Applewhite. What did Applewhite have to gain?

[nooskye]

To my fellow MHers: My apologies in advance ... y'all know I don't normally take this stance ... but I believe I am very much needing to stand up for myself today ... I'm sorry .... but Quark .... you need to hold on just a second there lil buddy … My feeble attempt at taking some of the seriousness out of this thread was in NO WAY an invitation to chastise, belittle nor throw out implications that I am ignorant … that’s just uncool, man … especially since I have been very cordial with you … accepting your scientific rhetoric …thanking you for it, if memory serves me correctly … and all in all *trying* (very hard, I might add) to hold a civilized conversation with you. I’ll have you know that I hold a consistent GPA worthy of the Dean’s List … with a vast array of knowledge … on every subject … from the streets all the way up to your beloved science (in which btw I hold a 110 average ... and a 100 average in biology) … you do not know me from a hole in the ground, and I would appreciate the same respect from YOU that you EXPECT from me. thank you very much … good day ... I'm done ...

[just-Wynn]

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning. -- C.S. Lewis

[Quark]

Right, it could all be wrong. So, open the argument up to more than scientific methodology. "Prove it" should not be thrown out, but shouldn't be a requirement. If so, your limiting yourself to only one part of what makes a human a human, and it's the part that shares itself with the animals.So should I believe all religions including New Age, Buddhism?

[Quark]

To my fellow MHers: My apologies in advance ... y'all know I don't normally take this stance ... but I believe I am very much needing to stand up for myself today ... I'm sorry .... but Quark .... you need to hold on just a second there lil buddy … My feeble attempt at taking some of the seriousness out of this thread was in NO WAY an invitation to chastise, belittle nor throw out implications that I am ignorant … that’s just uncool, man … especially since I have been very cordial with you … accepting your scientific rhetoric …thanking you for it, if memory serves me correctly … and all in all *trying* (very hard, I might add) to hold a civilized conversation with you. I’ll have you know that I hold a consistent GPA worthy of the Dean’s List … with a vast array of knowledge … on every subject … from the streets all the way up to your beloved science (in which btw I hold a 110 average ... and a 100 average in biology) … you do not know me from a hole in the ground, and I would appreciate the same respect from YOU that you EXPECT from me. thank you very much … good day ... I'm done ...Nooskye,

I'm not sure what I've done but I'm sorry. I promise that I have been sincerely trying not to offend. Please tell me what I said? I promise to correct it. Please?

[Quark]

I knew it couldn't last forever.

I guess we should be thankful to have someone of your superior intellect here to show us redneck ignorant hillbillies what is what.Whoa!! Hold on! I'm not talking about your intelligence. I'm sorry if that is the way it sounded to you. No, I'm talking about this one instance. Paul's conversion. We know so little about it. What happened the day before and the day before that? What conversations did he have and was there any trouble between him and his peers?

Come on Doc, be fair, don't assume the worst about me. If you don't understand something then at least give me the chance to explain or correct. I'm human, I make mistakes. I'm entitled to an opportunity to correct myself, right?

[aaron]

So should I believe all religions including New Age, Buddhism?

That's your decision. If you want to believe none of them, a single one, or all of them. At least you acknowledge more than just scientific data at that point though. Science makes up such a small part of what makes living living.

[Quark]

As to words and language, I belong to a number of science and philosophy forums and my work takes me into areas that use esoteric (big girl) language. I honestly am not certain which words you object to, though I have some suspicions, I will try and dial it back a bit.

That said, words are wonderful things. They empower us and enlarge our horizons. Take the opportunity to learn the words. I keep a permanent browser open to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) and www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.org) all of the time. Knowledge is power.Noosky,

Looking back I see how this was both presumptious and arrogant but I did not mean it to be that way. Please accept my appology.

[Quark]

How sad! Why? Why would that be sad? I've spent a lifetime studying and researching and this is where my journey leads me. I'm not sad that your journey took you to a different place.

Christ's message is one of hope. If I were you I would have hope that others who don't believe will some day believe. Don't let my belief or disbelief color your emotions in a negative way. I can't change what I believe to make you happy. I can only follow my conscience.

[Quark]

That's your decision. If you want to believe none of them, a single one, or all of them. At least you acknowledge more than just scientific data at that point though. Science makes up such a small part of what makes living living.I have a family. We go to the movies, the park like any other. We love eachother and play games and share experiences.

I listen to music and study art. I live a life that is not cold and sterile. On the contrary, it's full of wonder and amazement. It's full of people that I love and sights and sounds that make me happy.

I just choose to forgo the metaphysical. That's all. My life is just as good now as it was when I was a believer. I just don't believe anymore.

[big john]

I thought we paid billions to get pitchures from lunar craft. We even proved the moon is not made of cheese. They use video cameras on the Court Channel to prove the bad guy did it. You'd think those expensive cameras they put on those space ships would do the trick.
They used to think the earth was flat
Revelation 7

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
the bible says the earth has four corners,the earth does NOT have four corners.

[Quark]

I thought we paid billions to get pitchures from lunar craft. We even proved the moon is not made of cheese. They use video cameras on the Court Channel to prove the bad guy did it. You'd think those expensive cameras they put on those space ships would do the trick.Did you personally fly to the moon and take the pictures? Do you know based on first hand knowledge that the moon landing wasn't a hoax (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm)?

Perhaps you do have first hand knowledge. I on the other hand did not ever go to the moon. I don't know absolutley that it wasn't a hoax. I have good reason to believe it wasn't a hoax based on inductive reasoning but I don't have emperical evidence that it was not.

[just-Wynn]

Wynn has quite a few friends who are atheist and love to speak down terminology, demographics, and new studies to me in order to disprove what i believe and rationalize why and how i feel the way i do. Now, Wynn loves science and scientific facts as much as anybody and i try to look into the latest theories and new data as much as i can. I get it. It makes sense. But at the end of the day, when the lab is shut down and the text books are closed, to ME, there is something that transpires between the transduction of physical stimuli to chemical/electrical reactions taking place underneath my skin that makes sense. Something a bit warmer and more poetic than just calculations and compiled data telling me I'm meaningless, insignificant, accidental. I would like to believe that my friends and family are meaningful, significant, and have value beyond social contributions. Maybe it's just me though.

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

[Quark]

Wynn has quite a few friends who are atheist and love to speak down terminology, demographics, and new studies to me in order to disprove what i believe and rationalize why and how i feel the way i do. Now, Wynn loves science and scientific facts as much as anybody and i try to look into the latest theories and new data as much as i can. I get it. It makes sense. But at the end of the day, when the lab is shut down and the text books are closed, to ME, there is something that transpires between the transduction of physical stimuli to chemical/electrical reactions taking place underneath my skin that makes sense. Something a bit warmer and more poetic than just calculations and compiled data telling me I'm meaningless, insignificant, accidental. I would like to believe that my friends and family are meaningful, significant, and have value beyond social contributions. Maybe it's just me though.

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."Hinduism? Islam? Sikhism? Janism? Mormonism? Are these moderatly important?

You are making Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager). The problem is that you have reduced the problem to a simple dichotamy. That's not the case. Choose wisely because if the any of the many other religions are right you are in a lot of trouble.

[just-Wynn]

Just sharing my opinion quarkie. You don't have to get bent out of shape about it. It's always funny how atheist are always on the offensive.
"dichotomy". :)
if the any of the many other religions are right you are in a lot of trouble. What trouble? If i do find myself in trouble, you wanna share a bunk-bed? ;)

[Quark]

Just sharing my opinion quarkie. You don't have to get bent out of shape about it. It's always funny how atheist are always on the offensive.
"dichotomy". :)I assure you that I'm not bent out of shape.

What trouble? If i do find myself in trouble, you wanna share a bunk-bed? ;)Absolutely! :)

[big john]

quark? dont that be a thang inside an atom,kinda like one dem protins that circle round it?
I know leptons makes tea,dont they?

[Quark]

quark? dont that be a thang inside an atom,kinda like one dem protins that circle round it?
I know leptons makes tea,dont they?:) Yup. You know it. Just watch where you swing that golf club.

[Quark]

big john, big john...everyone knows that this is a Quark...

http://www.solocine.com/images/Star%20Trek%20Quark.jpg

:):) That's right.

[Conveyor Belt]

Sure but we should be careful about what we mean by faith. There is blind faith that is not based on sound deductive or inductive reasoning and there is faith that is.

I disagree to a point. If you base your reasoning on ideas that others have formulated, but with which you agree, are you not taking their conclusions, in part, on blind faith? For every paper and discovery made that we read about, we are taking, on faith, that these things did transpire. I never met Hitler, I never saw Hitler, yet I believe there was a person named Hitler who did things. Most people believe in Hitler. How much of what we know or are told of Hitler is true?

Faith, to me, is believing in something you haven't viewed. To me, all faith is blind. If it weren't blind, then it'd be called something else.

[just-Wynn]

Absolutely! Wynn has got top bunk though. :) I think that would be a form of eternal torment, just knowing Wynn was on the rickety bunk above you. :police:

[Quark]

I disagree to a point. If you base your reasoning on ideas that others have formulated, but with which you agree, are you not taking their conclusions, in part, on blind faith? For every paper and discovery made that we read about, we are taking, on faith, that these things did transpire. I never met Hitler, I never saw Hitler, yet I believe there was a person named Hitler who did things. Most people believe in Hitler. How much of what we know or are told of Hitler is true?

Faith, to me, is believing in something you haven't viewed. To me, all faith is blind. If it weren't blind, then it'd be called something else.Very good question.

I have been making the point that since I've never circumnavigated the globe and have never been in a rocket in space I have no direct evidence that the world is round (spherical).

So why do I believe that it is?

Well, I'm relying on evidence. Indirect evidence and I'm using Occam's Razor which states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible.

Option 1. The world is not round and there is a giant conspiracy to fool people. This conspiracy includes many government and private individuals who have gone into space. Many photographers, producers and directors who have faked the TV footage and photos. The people who have circumnavigated the globe by boat and plane.

Option 2. The world is round.

Reason dictates that I accept option 2. Could I be wrong? Yes. Is it likely that I'm wrong? No.

The same goes for anything else, relativity, QM, the structure of atoms, the structure of DNA, etc.

No, it's not simply blind faith because I rely on experts who subject their work to peer review and duplication. I rely on Occam's razor.

Which is more likely?
Option 1.) The experts are lying.
Option 2.) The experts are right.
Option 3.) The minoroty of experts who support a theory might be mistaken.

I take the position of #2 for those things that have reached a consensus i.e. germ theory, gravity, heliocentric, round earth, etc.

I take the position of #3 for those things that have yet to reach a consensus but are still actively being researched i.e. String Theory.

I take the position of #1 for those things that have been dismissed by the scientific community i.e. Cold Fusion

So no, I can't say that I rely on blind faith. I'm a skeptic and I try and use critical thinking to navigate the world of knowledge and theory.

[fredbear]

johnny cash says it best...god's gonna cut you down....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e0EQlQXoEo

[HorseWhisperer]

Religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Atheism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Compare and contrast... Wikipedia considers opptional debate that Buddhism could be considered a type of atheism.
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