Children and religion...

[virgo]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268081,00.html

Kids with religious parents are better behaved and adjusted than other children, according to a new study that is the first to look at the effects of religion on young child development.
The conflict that arises when parents regularly argue over their faith at home, however, has the opposite effect.

John Bartkowski, a Mississippi State University (javascript:siteSearch('Mississippi State University');) sociologist and his colleagues asked the parents and teachers of more than 16,000 kids, most of them first-graders, to rate how much self control they believed the kids had, how often they exhibited poor or unhappy behavior and how well they respected and worked with their peers.

The researchers compared these scores to how frequently the children’s parents said they attended worship services, talked about religion with their child and argued abut religion in the home.

The kids whose parents regularly attended religious services — especially when both parents did so frequently — and talked with their kids about religion were rated by both parents and teachers as having better self-control, social skills and approaches to learning than kids with non-religious parents.

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[Valkhorn]

There is a huge debate on whether religion has anything to do with morality or better family life. I know of people that are good parents and have good children who are of many religions and who are of none. I also know of MANY Christian families who have problem children.

In my opinion, children shouldn't be forced to believe anything until they are old enough to decide on their own. They can be exposed to anything you'd like, but I wouldn't dare force my child (if I ever have one) atheism or Christianity, or anything else. I would simply teach what each side believes.

Also morality in my opinion is based more on whether or not you'll be punished. In fact, you should be a good person because it is the right thing to do, not because you are afraid you'll be punished for it.

[Astra]

I'm curious about their methodology. If they did the study using children in Mississippi, I'm going to guess that the vast majority of children were brought up in church-attending homes. If families had a child who did not behave, would they be as likely to bring that child to church? The last couple paragraphs of the article kind of ask the same question.

I'd really like to see the study reexamine the subjects in about a decade or so to see if the behavior difference is still evident.

[virgo]

I'm curious about their methodology. If they did the study using children in Mississippi, I'm going to guess that the vast majority of children were brought up in church-attending homes. If families had a child who did not behave, would they be as likely to bring that child to church? The last couple paragraphs of the article kind of ask the same question.

I'd really like to see the study reexamine the subjects in about a decade or so to see if the behavior difference is still evident.

And to include children from different states that are not part of the Bible Belt.....

[just-Wynn]

I think we should put more emphasis on Santa Clause. Remind the kids year round he is always watching and writing in his notebook. And then if your kid is still bad, really give him coal and switches for Christmas. They might grow up to be schizophrenic or pessimistic, but we should all be willing to make small sacrafices for the kids. :police:

[Astra]

And to include children from different states that are not part of the Bible Belt.....
Yeah, that could throw things as well, assuming the study was done locally. I mentioned the bit about returning to the subjects in a decade because while I know a lot of people agree with the idea that self-control is pretty much defined by the age of 7, kids gain a lot of autonomy and really start to get independent through high school. I'd just like to see how many maintained a high level of control and continued to participate in church to see how the connection holds up into adulthood.

[LipsofanAngel]

There is a huge debate on whether religion has anything to do with morality or better family life. I know of people that are good parents and have good children who are of many religions and who are of none. I also know of MANY Christian families who have problem children.

In my opinion, children shouldn't be forced to believe anything until they are old enough to decide on their own. They can be exposed to anything you'd like, but I wouldn't dare force my child (if I ever have one) atheism or Christianity, or anything else. I would simply teach what each side believes.

Also morality in my opinion is based more on whether or not you'll be punished. In fact, you should be a good person because it is the right thing to do, not because you are afraid you'll be punished for it.

I agree with you on this one Valkhorn...considering the fact that many "problem children" come from Christian homes, then there is likely some other factor(s) that may contribute to the results found in this particular study.

Your comment about children not being forced to believe something- reminds me of something that happened to me when I was younger... yes, I grew up in a Christian home and went to church and all... one summer during a Bible School camp thing when I was around age 6 or so... I did the typical Baptist "walk down the aisle and ask to be baptized" thing.... only, my parents ended up talking to me about it and decided it was best for me NOT to be baptized at that time. They basically never mentioned again... they waited until I was old enough and actually UNDERSTOOD what the choice I was making was. It kinda confuses me when I see children as young as 4 being baptized. The child has NO clue what he/she is doing!

I'm curious about their methodology. If they did the study using children in Mississippi, I'm going to guess that the vast majority of children were brought up in church-attending homes. If families had a child who did not behave, would they be as likely to bring that child to church? The last couple paragraphs of the article kind of ask the same question.

I'd really like to see the study reexamine the subjects in about a decade or so to see if the behavior difference is still evident.

And to include children from different states that are not part of the Bible Belt.....

I think you both bring up some valid points to consider.

[TheKing]

the great thing about being in america is we are allowed to all things ranging between letting our kids believe as they see fit...or beating their beliefs into them

if i feel like becoming a Buddhist monk and dragging my kid along for the ride...ill damn well do it

that being said...TheDoc...you gained mad respect for that

[amanda]

I truly don't think religion has anything to do with behavior in children. I think parental participation is the key to having children that succeed and behave in school. I don't think it hurts, but I don't think it is the answer to everything.

[aaron]

One note, this study was published at LiveScience.com and the Social Science Journal. I'm sure it's a qualified scientific study and not just children from one state or area.

[Conveyor Belt]

Right now, my son believes in God. He's also attending a church pre-school two days a week. I don't have a problem with him believing in God. We talk about it, sometimes, but I'm careful what I say.

I grew up soaked in religion, and I never felt right about it. Not once. I don't know why. The closest thing I can liken it to is people who say they're gay, and have always been gay and never felt an attraction to the opposite sex. I've never felt a connection with the Christian version of god.

I will not, however, permit my son to be baptized in a church until he's 18. He can make that decision then. I'm not going to allow him to attend church with friends. If he wants to go, he and I will go together. I will not allow peer pressure to push him into a religion. I saw that all through high school, and after high school, those that were swayed by their peers didn't stay with the religion.

[TheKing]

amandah has a point...

it just so happens that more often than not... religious parents are probably a little more apt to actively participating in their children's lives.

[Conveyor Belt]

One note, this study was published at LiveScience.com and the Social Science Journal. I'm sure it's a qualified scientific study and not just children from one state or area.

I donno... theDoc has made it clear that some of these publishers are just BS... so, is this study BS, or is it in one of the good peer reviewed journals?

[aaron]

Well, as I was googling to find some more info about this, this guy has several books published, and several studies that reference his work.

[BlueDogDemocrat]

I believe the Bible storys that I learned as a child were invaluable in shaping my own morality and human perspective.

[LipsofanAngel]

I donno... theDoc has made it clear that some of these publishers are just BS... so, is this study BS, or is it in one of the good peer reviewed journals?

I tried to click on the link to the journal site... but it wouldn't open. Anyone else try?

Well, as I was googling to find some more info about this, this guy has several books published, and several studies that reference his work.

That doesn't say all that much either necessarily. In some academic settings, faculty are pushed, and pushed, and pushed to publish, publish, publish... which means that quality of their published works may be lacking. You pretty much can throw together a POS study and get it published in some "journals".... I don't know anything about that one to give an opinion on it though.

[LipsofanAngel]

I believe the Bible storys that I learned as a child were invaluable in shaping my own morality and human perspective.

no doubt that Bible stories can be useful in promoting values and right/wrong in children... but as far as accepting the faith as a whole, I think it should be up to the child when they are at an age that they truly understand what they are "accepting"

[big john]

well doc,I dont believe in god,I know now i never REALLY have,but I think your story about your daughter was just wonderful,it made me feel good.I know you can answer this for me.
why do some people,who dont believe,feel the need to change your beliefs?like i just said ,i dont believe,but i have no desire to change you are anyone,whats up with that?

[amanda]

well doc,I dont believe in god,I know now i never REALLY have,but I think your story about your daughter was just wonderful,it made me feel good.I know you can answer this for me.
why do some people,who dont believe,feel the need to change your beliefs?like i just said ,i dont believe,but i have no desire to change you are anyone,whats up with that?

A superiority complex? That's the only reason I can come up with Big John. I believe - but I'm not out to convert someone to my belief. Nor do I want someone to shove what they "believe" or don't believe down mine. To each his own.

[Valkhorn]

I'm assuming Valk groaned me because he assumed that we're brainwashing our children. Well, given that I have a Ph.D. in Psychology, my wife a Master's degree in Spanish, in addition to our frequent attendance to just about every scientific and cultural event possible while living in Atlanta and Baltimore, I think my daughter has had a wealth of exposure to a wide array of opinions, beliefs, and all the rest.

And yet you ignore just about all the evidence out there that points to a valid scientific theory (guess what that is) in favor of your religion.

Critical thinking skills are emphasized at our dinner table...and that is where ALL change in America takes place (my favorite Ronald Reagan quote).

Critical thinking is great, but brainwashing is not. Your child should be allowed to think critically about what you believe as well.

The truth is that both of my children made their own minds up and made their own decisions. These decisions were made at various times in their lives, so there was no universal rite of passage.


Not always. How many times have I heard "I was just brought up that way" as an excuse?

Now, Valk before you get up in arms about the youth of my children, I can assure you that absolutely no pressure was placed on either child.

So why didn't you read them a passage from the Koran? Or something from Kant?

We let both of them come to us and make a profession of faith. You'd be quite surprised to hear the reasons each of them give for their faith. They might even melt a rock hard heart like yours.


My heart isn't rock hard. I think you percieve atheists as bad people - and that should change.

As for the methodology of this study, it is weak at best, as is the case with most survey-type research. I personally find no value. When you consider the standard error of measurement and the confidence intervals for such methodologies, you quickly find out that the results are marginally insightful at best. I was just sharing a neat story from my life.

Glad you chimed in on that. So tell us why?

As to your last statement, the work of a professed atheist, Lawrence Kohlberg would differ strongly with your claims. In fact, moral reasoning is a much more complex phenomenon than your dismissive answer conveys.

Give me a source so I can read about this. Yes moral reasoning is complex, but does it make it right to only behave when watched? No.

While it is true that many people have a "law and order" or "good boy/girl" orientation when it comes to moral behavior, research suggests that many other types of morality constructs are functional in a large number of individuals.

Which has got nothing to do with what I claimed - and that was that one shouldn't only be moral because someone is watching or because of fear of a punishment. They should be good because it is the good thing to do.

The most charitable people in the world are those who are nice for NO rewards whatsoever.

[Valkhorn]

fez, I haven't looked at the methodology, but I smell a stink coming from it.

But you also have made a claim that if a methodology doesn't agree with your religion that it is wrong - even if the evidence is pretty unanimous and that it provides predictions (that have been correct) and is an applied science.

[just-Wynn]

How many times have I heard "I was just brought up that way" as an excuse? How were you brought up V-horn? Just wondering. thanks. ;)

[Valkhorn]

How were you brought up V-horn? Just wondering. thanks.

Methodist family, not extremely religious but some. I started to loose my faith at around 17 when I read the Bible and it was fully gone by the time I was 19.

[just-Wynn]

So before 17, you would consider youself to be a Christian? Am i correct in saying?

[Valkhorn]

So before 17, you would consider youself to be a Christian? Am i correct in saying?

Well let me put it to you this way. I grew up in a home that wasn't extremely religious yet I felt as if that was the only way - the only right way. I knew about other religions and I got the feeling that they were simply wrong.

I read the Bible, I tried to find solace in it, and it didn't answer a single question. In fact, some of the things I read in them were horrible and I couldn't believe were there but they were. So, from then on I just questioned and doubted it more and more. Even though I wasn't in a very strict religious home I still felt that Christianity was the only way until I was about 17.

So that is why I feel one has to be VERY careful not to inpregnate ideas into children's heads that one way is the only right way because the more you do the harder it is for them to reconcile differences in people that do not agree with them.

[Valkhorn]

we have a desire to see people come to a saving knowledge of the Lord.

To me that is just insulting. No one knows if their way is the right way and if you do that is just as if you are saying everyone else is the wrong way. There are 7 billion people in this world and 7 different opinions on what happens if anything at all when we die or in terms of spirituality or the lack thereof.

Doubting all other religions except yours is just arrogance to me, and so is teaching children a religion in the way that they feel it is the only way and all other ways are wrong.

[Valkhorn]

TheDoc disagrees: When you get groaned by fuzzis AND me in the same post, that should tell you something.

Instead of groaning, why don't you tell me what is wrong with what I said?

[aaron]

Well let me put it to you this way. I grew up in a home that wasn't extremely religious yet I felt as if that was the only way - the only right way. I knew about other religions and I got the feeling that they were simply wrong.

I read the Bible, I tried to find solace in it, and it didn't answer a single question. In fact, some of the things I read in them were horrible and I couldn't believe were there but they were. So, from then on I just questioned and doubted it more and more. Even though I wasn't in a very strict religious home I still felt that Christianity was the only way until I was about 17.

So that is why I feel one has to be VERY careful not to inpregnate ideas into children's heads that one way is the only right way because the more you do the harder it is for them to reconcile differences in people that do not agree with them.

Did you go to the John Kerry school of explanations?

[Valkhorn]

Did you go to the John Kerry school of explanations?

That was totally non-sequitor and has no bearing on my post. You do NOT know that your way is the right way and all others are wrong. No one does.

Deal with it.

Plus, everyone is entitled to change their opinion over time with regards to new information. It is when we have people who don't and who think they are right all the time and don't wish to listen to opposing evidence when we have stagnation and ignorance.

And before you blame me for doing that, I have always asked for you to support your side or explain. "Show your work". I am open to your ideas so long as you can back them up.

Simply saying "I am right, you are wrong, and the Bible tells me so" is not enough.

[dollfus46]

I believe the Bible storys that I learned as a child were invaluable in shaping my own morality and human perspective.

Well, it appears to be a fact that the atheist nation is growing. It's up 2% to 12% in the U.S. I think since 1986. I may be off on that a bit. Denmark, Finland, et. al. are about 95% atheistic. Europe is over the top atheist, and even England is 44% atheists.

[dollfus46]

I'm assuming Valk groaned me because he assumed that we're brainwashing our children. Well, given that I have a Ph.D. in Psychology, my wife a Master's degree in Spanish, in addition to our frequent attendance to just about every scientific and cultural event possible while living in Atlanta and Baltimore, I think my daughter has had a wealth of exposure to a wide array of opinions, beliefs, and all the rest.

Nah. Valk is groaning because you aren't bright enough to raise your children the right way like he would raise his. You were disqualified as a fit parent when you walked them into a church, and it went downhill from there. I think you need to consult with him on the matter and make adjustments as he deems necessary. Afterall, you aren't a Evolutionary Biologist.

[dollfus46]

And yet you ignore just about all the evidence out there that points to a valid scientific theory (guess what that is) in favor of your religion.



Critical thinking is great, but brainwashing is not. Your child should be allowed to think critically about what you believe as well.



Not always. How many times have I heard "I was just brought up that way" as an excuse?



So why didn't you read them a passage from the Koran? Or something from Kant?



My heart isn't rock hard. I think you percieve atheists as bad people - and that should change.



Glad you chimed in on that. So tell us why?



Give me a source so I can read about this. Yes moral reasoning is complex, but does it make it right to only behave when watched? No.



Which has got nothing to do with what I claimed - and that was that one shouldn't only be moral because someone is watching or because of fear of a punishment. They should be good because it is the good thing to do.

The most charitable people in the world are those who are nice for NO rewards whatsoever.

I've tried to type something and erased it and tried over and over again but I just don't know quite how to respond to such tripe.

[zorro]

In my opinion, children shouldn't be forced to believe anything until they are old enough to decide on their own.
And then you force them?

I wouldn't dare force my child (if I ever have one) atheism or Christianity, or anything else. I would simply teach what each side believes.
This is pure baloney! You teach your child by what you say and do, as well as by what you don't say and do. And neutrality about this is a myth. Just look at your posts here if you think that you would be neutral on so vital a subject. Heck, you're a raging fanatic for atheism with complete strangers. Do you think that you wouldn't try to influence your own children? You are more self-deceived than I originally thought.

Also morality in my opinion is based more on whether or not you'll be punished. In fact, you should be a good person because it is the right thing to do, not because you are afraid you'll be punished for it.
What is a good person? Who defines good? To what absolute moral law can an atheist point? What is his standard of good and bad, right and wrong? And why should anybody else care about his standard based on his own premises?

[Blasko]

zorro, that is an incredibly insulting post.

[Conveyor Belt]

You guys are funny... I like watching people argue past each other. It's just so stupid, from BOTH sides... when are you guys going to realize that Valkhorn is a lost cause. He cannot maintain a civil debate, and vice versa.

I'll give Valkhorn this one, no one knows anything. Zorro, Doc, Valkhorn, whomever, none of you KNOW ANYTHING. You believe, you have faith, your mind and hearts tell you you are right, but until we die and find out, we know only what we've been told and discovered on our own. How is it so hard to believe that two people looking at the same thing come to two different conclusions?

You guys keep it up, though... I'm going to start a drinking game based on the interactions between Z, Doc and Valk... details coming soon...

[Valkhorn]

He cannot maintain a civil debate

I actually asked for a formal written debate about Evolution from several of these people. They never accepted it.

[Valkhorn]

Well, it appears to be a fact that the atheist nation is growing. It's up 2% to 12% in the U.S. I think since 1986. I may be off on that a bit. Denmark, Finland, et. al. are about 95% atheistic. Europe is over the top atheist, and even England is 44% atheists.

And what is wrong with this?

[Valkhorn]

And then you force them?

I said I wouldn't force my children to do that if I had any. TheDoc and Zorro obviously cannot read.

This is pure baloney! You teach your child by what you say and do, as well as by what you don't say and do. And neutrality about this is a myth. Just look at your posts here if you think that you would be neutral on so vital a subject. Heck, you're a raging fanatic for atheism with complete strangers. Do you think that you wouldn't try to influence your own children? You are more self-deceived than I originally thought.

Point the finger at yourself. You were here espousing your faith on others long before I was ever on this forum. Your arguments are unsound and illogical - I have shown you why.

What is a good person? Who defines good? To what absolute moral law can an atheist point? What is his standard of good and bad, right and wrong? And why should anybody else care about his standard based on his own premises?

Society. Anyone who claims it's a guy in the sky has no basis for that claim other than faith. Five hundred years ago, murder wouldn't have been frowned upon as much, neither would have slavery. Five hundred years from now things could very well be different, too.

In fact even your Bible condones hatred and slavery - just as it would because people 2000 years ago felt that way.

Yet you ignore it because you don't think you are right, you know you are right, and in spite of me and others showing how and where you are wrong to the letter you cannot let go of your arrogance.

And TheDoc supporting this just makes it worse. Is there no honor among creationists?

[amanda]

Valkhorn, for a young man you are might up-tight. Have you thought about playing around on here in some more pleasurable areas? Do you even know that Delta State is closed because of a bomb threat? Did you know that bad weather is on its way to the Pine Belt? That there was a death by a camel? And, hey, an area that might interest someone in your age group - we have a Boys Meet Girls forum that may be right up your alley. Give it a shot. Live a little.

[Valkhorn]

Valkhorn, for a young man you are might up-tight. Have you thought about playing around on here in some more pleasurable areas? Do you even know that Delta State is closed because of a bomb threat? Did you know that bad weather is on its way to the Pine Belt? That there was a death by a camel?

I post in other forums as well. This is an issue I feel strongly about and like to discuss. There is nothing wrong with that.

I am also well aware of the news.

And, hey, an area that might interest someone in your age group - we have a Boys Meet Girls forum that may be right up your alley. Give it a shot. Live a little.

I do live a lot. Why do you think I don't? Why does it bother you that I'm a happy Atheist?

[amanda]

Atheist or not - I don't see you as a very happy person. So far the only side of you we have seen here is a crabby, harpy, domineering, know-it-all. So, maybe if you interacted with the rest of us on another level, we might actually believe you are happy, atheist or not.

[Valkhorn]

Atheist or not - I don't see you as a very happy person. So far the only side of you we have seen here is a crabby, harpy, domineering, know-it-all.

This is the side I've seen from you and a few other people here as well.

So, maybe if you interacted with the rest of us on another level, we might actually believe you are happy, atheist or not.

I have tried that, it did not work.

[amanda]

This is the side I've seen from you and a few other people here as well.

I may have poked some fun at you and your ideas, but that is because I have absolutely no interest in debating you. Besides, even if I could produce God himself to have a talk with you - you would still find a reason to argue.

I have tried that, it did not work.

Where? In the Suggestions and Feedback thread? Yeah....I noticed that interchange. Real fun-loving.

[zorro]

No one knows if their way is the right way and if you do that is just as if you are saying everyone else is the wrong way.
That may be the most hypocritical statement that I've ever seen here on MH.com.

Your whole presence here has been about promoting your worldview with an intense religious fervor and without compromise. You claim that others are wrong and you are right. You have never once admitted that you could be wrong. But guess what?

Now, when it comes to salvation, we can definitely know if what we believe regarding it is correct or not. Hear the Word of the Lord:

from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. -- II Timothy 3:15

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -- John 14:6

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. -- Acts 4:12

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. . . .We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. -- I John 5:13, 19-20

Doubting all other religions except yours is just arrogance to me, and so is teaching children a religion in the way that they feel it is the only way and all other ways are wrong.
It's only arrogance if it is not the truth and yet claims to be. OTOH, if it is the truth, and the only way of salvation from our sins (and it is), then it is the best news that any person can ever hear if he avails himself to the salvation provided. And to actually believe this and yet not teach it to your children would be unthinkable.

[bpitt]

He has been told, and he knows. Live by example, and show faith, hope and brotherly love. I ask that you let it lay with this man, and argue no more. It's between him and the Lord. Do not be tricked into 'arguments'. Remember, Jesus was tempted by the devil, he spoke with him, but never argued like this. He just did the right thing. Hopefully, he will come around, but if not, it is beyond us now. Pray for him, and let him be.

[dollfus46]

There is a huge debate on whether religion has anything to do with morality or better family life. I know of people that are good parents and have good children who are of many religions and who are of none. I also know of MANY Christian families who have problem children.

In my opinion, children shouldn't be forced to believe anything until they are old enough to decide on their own. They can be exposed to anything you'd like, but I wouldn't dare force my child (if I ever have one) atheism or Christianity, or anything else. I would simply teach what each side believes.

Also morality in my opinion is based more on whether or not you'll be punished. In fact, you should be a good person because it is the right thing to do, not because you are afraid you'll be punished for it.

Pure pie in the sky. Hope you were wearing gloves when you pulled that tripe out. If your child were to begin to believe Jesus Christ was his/her Savior and that evolution was nonsense, you'd go after him/her like you are the people you don't even know here. You'd force respect and values on him/her. You might even make him eat his spinach. Don't hand me all that sugary "if I had a child" I'd do this and that stuff, you're making me diabetic.