The Mormons - a special on PBS

[RHB]

I highly encourage those who are interested to watch tomorrow night at 8pm on MPB (Ch. 9) on Comcast. The special is two parted and the first part aired tonight showing the origins of the LDS church and their movement west. I caught it about when it was ending and haven't seen if the first part will repeat. Tuesday night's program is concentrated on the modern day church - which I think will be more interesting than what aired this evening. Apparently, the point of the special is to answer a lot of the questions of non-Mormans (like myself) about how the church operates and even delve into some of the mystery of their customs.

[TheKing]

like the special underwear?

[fuzzis]

The first part was intereseting. The NYTimes ran this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/arts/television/30morm.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) on the series today.

[RHB]

The first part was intereseting. The NYTimes ran this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/arts/television/30morm.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) on the series today.

Well, durn it. I really wish I had known about it earlier b.c I would have watched. You didn't happen to tape it, did you? It doesn't look like they are going to replay it. What did you think of the first part?

[Baloo]

Thanks RHB for the notice and Fuzzis for posting that article... for anyone who wants to know more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), you can check out their website at www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org)... It is very user friendly and answers a lot of questions...

[just-Wynn]

Also, heard that the an overwhelming majority of FBI, CIA, and Secret Service Agents were Mormons. FBI-Telestial, CIA-Terrestrial, Secret Service-Clestial.

[TheKing]

Ya'll can google this but seems I heard somewhere that the most sought after and successful CEO's of Mega-Corporations were Mormons.

Also, heard that the an overwhelming majority of FBI, CIA, and Secret Service Agents were Mormons.

I'm too busy watching my stock drop to verify this urban legend :smt118

theres a lot of successful scientologists too

i dont think your religion is an accurate indicator of how well you will do in a career if for no other reason than sheer diversity that exists in the talent pool

[Baloo]

Thanks Hawkeye! That is a very interesting and enlightening list!

[Baloo]

Thanks Hawkeye! I also know that the Chief Intelligence Officer for the United States Ground Based Mid-Course Ballistic Missile Defense Site and a few other high level officials involved with that project (the one who transported the top secret components and others) are also Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[just-Wynn]

The Great Salt Lake is a missile silo.
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Shores/9144/GreatSaltLake1.jpg
http://www.jnthn.net/photos/full/85.jpg

[Baloo]

Dese folk must be sort'a like the Pope's Swiss Guard.

Yah, I guess that would be close... :smt118

just-wynn, where on Earth did you get that picture...???? Great, now we will all be carted off for interrogation with intel... I've already been there twice... The little room with one dangling light hanging from the ceiling... No windows... One table in the middle with two chairs and a few other guys standing guard for good measure... Video cameras all around... :smt103 We've had it now...

[TheKing]

been there twice?

do tell

[Baloo]

been there twice?

do tell

I would love to King, but I have been sworn to secrecy and would definitely have the men in black coming to visit me in an unfriendly manner if I divulge any of the details... Let's just say that my first humvee ride was not because I was hitch-hiking on the side of the road...

[Astra]

The LDS does have one of the most extensive genealogy databases in the world, considering how much value they place on family.

Now the FBI/CIA stuff I don't know about... I've looked into the FBI as a career option and it was so overwhelmingly white, male, and Catholic or Protestant in the old days that they seem happy to get anything to add a little variety to their membership.

[big john]

When i first became a member,I was invited to bishop Gwen's house for a birthday party for his son and i remember thinking these people are just like the brady bunch.
I was invited to a lot of other get togethers at members homes and they where all like that,it was a trip.
I have never been treated as nice by any other people.
I think the amish are like that too but i have never met any,I would like to.

[Baloo]

Thanks Big John... I also know a lot of members who are wonderful people...

[RHB]

Thanks RHB for the notice and Fuzzis for posting that article... for anyone who wants to know more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), you can check out their website at www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org)... It is very user friendly and answers a lot of questions...

Thanks for posting the website link. It's already answered a lot of questions. I'm still looking forward to the special though. Did everyone else know that Mormons are taught not to drink coffee or tea? That was new to me.

[Astra]

Thanks for posting the website link. It's already answered a lot of questions. I'm still looking forward to the special though. Did everyone else know that Mormons are taught not to drink coffee or tea? That was new to me.
Yeah, they are very anti-drug, to the point of excluding caffeine and alcohol. As with all groups, some members are a little less strict with their observation, but some will only drink water, milk, fruit juice, etc.

[SoMissTV]

Isn't Pepsi owned by Mormons?

PepsiCo is a publicly traded company, and I imagine that some of the Mormon faith have mutual funds that contain PepsiCo, so yes.

Or did you mean majority ownership? :)

[Astra]

Isn't Pepsi owned by Mormons?
Nope (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/mormon.asp)

(the page is about Mormons owning Coke, but if you read down a bit it also debunks the Pepsi ownership rumor as well)

[Conveyor Belt]

Thanks for posting the website link. It's already answered a lot of questions. I'm still looking forward to the special though. Did everyone else know that Mormons are taught not to drink coffee or tea? That was new to me.

I didn't have my first coffee until I was about 20. I still can't drink tea. I guess it's something you have to grow up on, b/c it's just nasty to me.

[Conveyor Belt]

When i first became a member,I was invited to bishop Gwen's house for a birthday party for his son and i remember thinking these people are just like the brady bunch.
I was invited to a lot of other get togethers at members homes and they where all like that,it was a trip.
I have never been treated as nice by any other people.
I think the amish are like that too but i have never met any,I would like to.

Stan Gwen Sr. was bishop? Oh, man...
I wonder what his youngest son is doing now...

[fuzzis]

Yeah, they are very anti-drug, to the point of excluding caffeine and alcohol. As with all groups, some members are a little less strict with their observation, but some will only drink water, milk, fruit juice, etc.

One of my very favorite colleagues is an extremely devout Mormon. Lovely, sweet woman. We went to several professional conventions together, and at one in San Francisco, I had a few adult beverages. I think in a seven hour period, I had a beer (with dinner) and then several glasses of wine at a reception. As we were getting ready to walk the 8 blocks back to the hotel, Marilyn put her hand on my arm and asked, "Do we need to call a cab? Are you sure you're alright to walk back to the hotel?" :laugh:

Marilyn has never in her life touched alcohol, caffeine, or any other illicit drug. (Her husband did in his wild younger days), but her never. When I told her that I was fine walking back to the hotel, she said, "Well, I don't have any experience here, so I'll have to take your word." :laugh:

[TheKing]

i know mormons are notorious for their nepotism

generally speaking

[EricStratton]

Thanks Big John... I also know a lot of members who are wonderful people...

I grew up down the skreet from several Mormon families. All good people. john, you and CB prolly know them.

[big john]

Stan Gwen Sr. was bishop? Oh, man...
I wonder what his youngest son is doing now...he was in 88 89.dang! That seems like a couple of weeks ago.

[selmore]

I like most Mormons too, no drinking, coffee, tobacco, they keep the sabbath, they recruit like mad (kids go on a mission), they seem ok by me. Glenn Becks a Mormon too.

I did read this article today. Hitchens evidentally hammers all religions equally in his new book, I suppose he will get trouble for his view of Islam.


Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion
from: Christopher Hitchens

excerpts:
In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers. However, within four years he was back in the local newspapers (all of which one may still read) as the discoverer of the "Book of Mormon."

......He had two huge local advantages which most mountebanks and charlatans do not possess. First, he was operating in the same hectically pious district that gave us the Shakers and several other self-proclaimed American prophets.

......They have assembled a gigantic genealogical database at a huge repository in Utah, and are busy filling it with the names of all people whose births, marriages, and deaths have been tabulated since records began. This is very useful if you want to look up your own family tree, and as long as you do not object to having your ancestors becoming Mormons. Every week, at special ceremonies in Mormon temples, the congregations meet and are given a certain quota of names of the departed to "pray in" to their church. This retrospective baptism of the dead seems harmless enough to me, but the American Jewish Committee became incensed when it was discovered that the Mormons had acquired the records of the Nazi "final solution," and were industriously baptizing what for once could truly be called a "lost tribe": the murdered Jews of Europe. For all its touching inefficacy, this exercise seemed in poor taste.

full article
http://slate.com/id/2165033/

[big john]

I grew up down the skreet from several Mormon families. All good people. john, you and CB prolly know them.I don't know,I didnt join the LDS till I was in my late teens,before that I went to church with the gillilands at the church of god of prophecy on williams skreek.

[Baloo]

Selmore, I must say that the article that you have posted is NOT fact based. While it does hold a few truths, many statements have been twisted with a negative spin or are completely out of left field with no factual information at all and are NOT a part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints history, religion or beliefs. What a sad, rediculous document...

[selmore]

I thought I prefaced it enough to make it palatable for all.

[Baloo]

Thank you for going back and adding your opening comment to that article Selmore I had posted my comment before you edited it.

[selmore]

Good people

Forgot to mention Mitt Romney, hes a true small government conservative.

[Baloo]

Thanks Selmore...

[Conveyor Belt]

I'll tell you what did it for me for the Mormon church...

It was the Salamander Document (http://www.lds-mormon.com/silltoe.shtml)...

And what about the forged document that did it in for me? It was the fact that the church bought it to hide it because all tests showed it to be authentic. If they're so sure of their faith, why did they try to buy and bury this document? I understand trying to avoid controversy, but what else have they bought and hidden in the past that would undo their foundations?

And it's just not the Mormon's that have the corner on this. The Catholic church has bought, from what I understand, many documents and statues that would undermine Christianity.

Maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist at heart...

[Baloo]

CB, it is sad that you gave up your religion over a document that someone wrote that sounds definitely like a conspiracy theory... Or at the least, a few extremeists who have NO church authority to commit such acts. I am sure that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not trying to "hide" anything and am also sure that the church does not condone, support, instigate or participate in any such actions as described in that "report"... Just as I am also sure that the entire Islamic religion does not support terrorist activities and that the Catholic religion does not support child molesting. What a bunch of hooey! Also, please note that Mormon's are Christians and that the separatists groups who formed their own cults based on some of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints beliefs and doctrines are not in any way affiliated with, supported by or endorsed by the church.

[Conveyor Belt]

CB, it is sad that you gave up your religion over a document that someone wrote that sounds definitely like a conspiracy theory... Or at the least, a few extremeists who have NO church authority to commit such acts. I am sure that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not trying to "hide" anything and am also sure that the church does not condone, support, instigate or participate in any such actions as described in that "report"... Just as I am also sure that the entire Islamic religion does not support terrorist activities and that the Catholic religion does not support child molesting. What a bunch of hooey! Also, please note that Mormon's are Christians and that the separatists groups who formed their own cults based on some of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints beliefs and doctrines are not in any way affiliated with, supported by or endorsed by the church.

I gave up my religion long before I learned about he Salamander document. I'm in no way suggesting the church had anything to do with murders. What is a fact, though, is that the church paid for the document in order to hide it from public view. They thought it was authentic.

Now, if someone tried to blackmail you with something you knew wasn't true, would you pay for it?

[Baloo]

Thanks for clarifying that CB... I really still have doubts that the church "bought" that document... It just doesn't make sense that they would... They really would have no reason to... I would be more inclined to believe that maybe if a member of the church were involved (without church knowledge, consent or endorsement, who with church knowledge of it would be ex-communicated) that perhaps they, as an individual may have bought it to cover up their personal involvement...

[CircusRide]

I know they did away with the whole multiple wives thing but my question is ...........WHY? What man in his right mind would even CONSIDER more than one wife? One is too many!

[TheKing]

Did I ever tell you guys the story about when a pair of mormons showed up at my house one saturday morning?

i shit you not...their names were elder woody and elder pecker

they talked to me...i told them no thanks i was satisfied with my own underwear and sent them on their way...i closed the door

then i said 'wait? wtf?'

walked back outside and said hey you two come here...whats your names again? they told me...i laughed...then they hung their heads in shame then got on their bikes and peddled away.

[Conveyor Belt]

I know they did away with the whole multiple wives thing but my question is ...........WHY? What man in his right mind would even CONSIDER more than one wife? One is too many!

Yeah, what gets me is that it was a revelation from God to take multiple wives, but then when the US Government started leaning on them, God showed up and said not to do it anymore... God has good timing, no? whatever...

[Conveyor Belt]

Did I ever tell you guys the story about when a pair of mormons showed up at my house one saturday morning?

i shit you not...their names were elder woody and elder pecker

they talked to me...i told them no thanks i was satisfied with my own underwear and sent them on their way...i closed the door

then i said 'wait? wtf?'

walked back outside and said hey you two come here...whats your names again? they told me...i laughed...then they hung their heads in shame then got on their bikes and peddled away.

Usually, Saturday morning is their 'off' time. Still, there's really no reason to be a complete ass to someone...

[TheKing]

have i ever needed a reason to be an ass to someone?

dude if you cant laugh at your own name being woody...or pecker...and laugh even harder at the idea that you are paired with someone else with either of those names...man thats just hilarious

and i dont know what youre talking about 'off' time...because thats the ONLY time i have had them come to my house/apartment. I generally get a visit from a jehovas witness and mormons every 6 months or so. On saturdays.

but apparently im not the only one that has issues with mormons on saturday morning...this guy had enough of an issue with them to make a video

QOYJwoF6Xv8

[Baloo]

King, could you please move your negative posts, sarcasm and attitude to another thread... I was quite enjoying this one the way it was before you posted here. Aren't there enough other religion threads for you to bash on? Or, if you prefer, why not start a religion bashing thread...? It really gets old and shows no class........

[SoMissTV]

Yeah, TheKing. Keep this up and we'll call your momma on you.

[Baloo]

It would just be nice to have one positive thread without the sarcasm... from anyone....

[TheKing]

Oh come on...its a good video!

Nevertheless...if you want to discuss class...or a lack thereof... I have plenty of stories that have been shared with me regarding mormons and their behavior towards the community as a whole after the hurricane...and thats just a start...

i have more than you could ever imagine... just because im not a mormon, don't assume that i have not had enough contact with a great number of them to crank out accurate commentary...

but because you seem to have your special underwear in a wad, i wont share those stories...at least not right now...god knows i would hate to tarnish that flawless reputation that mormons as a whole have

i have a heavy interest in the various religions and their quirks...do i have anything against it? well no...ultimately i dont...but i do find it to be hilarious

[Conveyor Belt]

have i ever needed a reason to be an ass to someone?



apparently not... being a smart ass and being a complete ass are two different things. It's not the joke on the names, I'm sure they got that a lot... it's the underwear comment that's being a complete ass.

Good luck to you on your sad life. Maybe one day you'll find the virtue of being polite and the joys it can bring... until then, the world will just have to endure one more asshole...

[Baloo]

I am sure that we could find people of every religion who have offended others... I am also not wearing the "special underwear"... I am positive that just because a person is of a specific belief that they are not a good person 100% of the time... Just as I have said on other threads that being a Christian or non-Christian does not automatically make someone good or bad... i am really just sick of all of the crap started by religion bashers who can't seem to stand a thread to have a positive infulence on anything or anyone... Bash all anyone wants to about anything, just do it somewhere else!!!

[Conveyor Belt]

Nevertheless...if you want to discuss class...or a lack thereof... I have plenty of stories that have been shared with me regarding mormons and their behavior towards the community as a whole after the hurricane...and thats just a start...

oh, do share your second hand stories... I'll give you first hand ones in return...

[RHB]

Ok....back to the program that was on tonight....I just finished watching it. Just as I thought it was interesting and thought provoking. One thing that it didn't answer was some of the questions I had about secret rituals or traditions that happen only in the Temple. I don't understand why someone who is not of the Mormon faith is not allowed to attend ceremonies or be privy to what goes on there. I know of an instance where a woman couldn't attend her own son's wedding.

On a lighter note, the funniest part was when an LDS convert talked about being visited by missionaries. She explained that at that time of her life she was just paroled from prison for drugs and these two boys came to her apartment. "They told me the most preposterous story about a white boy, a dead angel, and some gold plates." She goes on to say that she started wondering what drug they were on and when they told her they were from the LDS church, she got confused and thought they meant LSD and thought "that's the church for me."

Did anyone else actually watch?

[Conveyor Belt]

Ok....back to the program that was on tonight....I just finished watching it. Just as I thought it was interesting and thought provoking. One thing that it didn't answer was some of the questions I had about secret rituals or traditions that happen only in the Temple. I don't understand why someone who is not of the Mormon faith is not allowed to attend ceremonies or be privy to what goes on there. I know of an instance where a woman couldn't attend her own son's wedding.

It's really not a secret, but the fact that non members can't attend has generated a huge "I bet they do X" in there mindset from people. The temple is 'dedicated' and once dedicated, it cannot be entered by a non-member. The wedding that takes place in the temple isn't like a normal wedding. It's a temple wedding, and ends with the bride and groom being sealed together for time and all eternity. Where normal marriages end with 'till death do you part', a temple marriage is forever.

Everyone wants to think that the temple is a place to sacrafice virgins and perform illicit or illegal acts. In fact, there have been a few times where the government got a court order to enter a temple. It had to be rededicated after the warrant was served.

What mainly goes on is baptisms for the dead. In the Baton Rouge Temple, the baptismal font is a large bowl, about 12' across, sitting on the backs of 8 or 12 bull statues. It's very ornate. You go and get baptized for someone who's dead who didn't get baptized into the LDS faith.

Secondly are what are referred to as sessions. Sessions are where you are led to make commitments and covenants with God. When you make these covenants, you then are allowed to wear the 'underwear' which are referred to as 'temple garments'. Temple garments are worn over your underwear, so, it's not like underwear... it's just a sort of old fashion way to remind yourself of your dedication and covenants you made while at the temple.

Then, lastly, you have sealing sessions, where you can be sealed for time and all eternity to your family or spouse. I'm not sure if mormons hold the belief that once dead, you forget your family, because lots of emphasis is put on being sealed to one another... maybe it's a fail safe... so that if one member goes to hell, you can still visit one another... I never really got this question answered...

[Baloo]

Thank you CB for your very enlightening and very factual post. You put it all very well... Thank you RHB for your comments as well and for bringing the thread back to where it was meant to be...

[BayStBum]

My inlaws are members of the Community of Christ, which used to be known as the Reorganized LDS. If I understand correctly, they formed up from the Mormons left behind in the midwest when Young took the larger group to Utah. So far as I know, they don't have the same rituals or wear temple garments and can drink caffeine, but they share the commitments to family and decency that make "regular" Mormons stand out. They have a website at http://www.cofchrist.org/ or you can read a less biased take on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ.

[big john]

the docs answer
http://www.shields-research.org/42_Questions/ques17.htm

[Conveyor Belt]

The Lord made it a requirement, at the time he gave this revelation, that a man must hold the priesthood and have received its ordinances in order to see God. The Lord said: "this revelation...is in force from this very hour upon all the world..."3 This would mean that prior to this revelation, neither the priesthood nor its ordinances were necessary for a man to see the face of God and live. When Joseph Smith went into the grove to pray, he had not been ordained to the priesthood by someone on the earth, neither had he received any of the ordinances. When the two personages appeared they forgave him of his sins, making it possible for Joseph to see the face of God and live.4

Now, Doc, if you think that is some BS answer, then you know how I feel when I come to a conclusion about a scripture and someone tells me I'm wrong...

[RHB]

CB, thank you for shedding more light on the Temple for me. Being an open minded and inquisitive person, I am always trying to soak in more about other beliefs and cultures.

Your post also made me think of another question that was semi-addressed in the program. It seemed to portray Mormons as very uncomfortable in questioning church leadership or doctrine for fear of excommunication. It sighted several examples of people publishing books and articles and then being cut off from the church.

Now, I'm Catholic, and growing up in the South, know what it was like to be in the minority and explain my beliefs, sacraments, and church traditions to others. My family and I have never felt uncomfortable questioning practices in the church and discussing things that we believe should change (women serving in the priesthood, priests being allowed to marry, changes in the church teachings on contraception.)

My thoughts on these make many conservative Catholics squirmy. However, if I were to publish a book or article on these topics - I would not fear retribution or excommunication. The impression the program left me with last night was that this is not the case for Mormons. One speaker said that many Mormons have a great fear of angering leadership and being cut off from their family and the church. Are there any practicing Mormons here that feel comfortable sharing their thoughts on this?

[Conveyor Belt]

My thoughts on these make many conservative Catholics squirmy. However, if I were to publish a book or article on these topics - I would not fear retribution or excommunication. The impression the program left me with last night was that this is not the case for Mormons. One speaker said that many Mormons have a great fear of angering leadership and being cut off from their family and the church. Are there any practicing Mormons here that feel comfortable sharing their thoughts on this?

I'm not practicing, but I don't see how this could be the case. In my time attending church, we only voted once to excommunicate someone. In that case, it was a guy who'd married into the church and then divorced the woman and was 'spreading rumors and untruths about the church'.

The 'leadership' of the church changes so often, that I don't see how this could be the case. Let me explain about the leadership of the church. Anyone, and I mean any man, can be the bishop of the church. Now, that man will be living a good mormon life, supposedly, and attend church reguarly. There are no paid positions of leadership in the Mormon church. From the bishop to the sunday school teachers, to the piano player, no one gets paid a dime for doing those things. I'm going to see if I can remember the hierarcy from decades past... it goes Bishop of a Ward, Ward Leader, Stake Leader (oversees the wards), Stake President (oversees the stakes), then I think it goes up from there to President or Prohpet.

For example, in this area, the Hattiesburg church is the stake center, unless the new building in OG is the stake center. The wards that belong to the Hattiesburg stake are the 3 that attend the Hattiesburg church, the OG ward, Laurel, Sandhill and Wiggins... there may be more now, but that's what I'm remembering.

Now, every year or so, the bishop and stake leaders change, as do the higher ups. I'm just not understanding the 'fear of leadership' when it changes so often. I think that's more for the FLDS church that practices polygomy and has that dictator of a leader in Colorado. Now, THAT's something to be feared...

Did I help answer the question, or just make you more confused?

[Conveyor Belt]

And for extras, this is how a typical sunday service at the mormon church goes:

1) Opening Prayer
2) Sacrament Song (this is just a reverent song, not a song called 'Sacrament Song')
3) Recieving the sacrament
4) 1st speaker (this is where the church greatly differs from other churches. There is no preacher. The bishop does not preach to the congregation. Members of the church are given assignments or topics to research, or asked to speak about works they've done and what they've gotten out of them. On any given sunday, there are about 3-4 speakers from the congregation. It's called it 'giving a talk on X'. It's okay to laugh, but never to clap in the chapel. )
2) Song
3) Speakers 2&3
4) Closing song
5) Closing prayer

Sometimes there's church business that requires a vote in there somewhere.

[RHB]

CB, that did help. Thanks for also offering the normal order of service. I am glad to hear that members feel comfortable in researching their faith. I was alarmed last night when I felt that the special was inferring that people are not allowed to question doctrine. IMO, that is unhealthy in any culture or religion.

[big john]

They believe in having fun too,dances,parties,sports sports,and a little more sports.
For the poor they have deseret brand foods,is this spelled right cb?
I remember they helped me with food when i was a teenager and all the food had DESERET on it,good stuff too.hey cb,do you know if they own that co. or anything about it?

[big john]

One more thing for cb,you know the 12 guys under the prophet? What are they called?
Anywho one of those guys was present for my baptism and he signed my baptism thingy,and all the other teenagers thought that was sooooo cool.
this is bringing back so many great memories,if i could force myself to believe in god I think I would go back,lol.
When I think back on all the other churches I went to while growing up,all I have are bad memorys,fire demons,devils.
Once when very young,i remember coming home from a baptist church,the sunday school teacher said that god was going to burn the whole earth and he was going to do it soon,that scared the hell out of me I remember looking out the windows looking for the fires to come,no child should have to go through bs like that.
The mormon church was all about happiness and joy,and really loving one another and not talking bad about people,I'm rambling,sorry.

[selmore]

If a person wants to start a hot thread, all they gotta do is mention religion.

Zoom...the views and posts go through the roof.

[Conveyor Belt]

The Mormon church operates a 'welfare' program for members. However, you must not be on US government assistance in order to qualify. They will help place you in a job and do have the branded food which is owned and operated by the LDS church. It is food made for the welfare program and for disaster relief worldwide.

As for the 12 guys, I want to think that it's apostles, fitting since they serve under the prophet. There's also a quorum of 70, etc. It's all really fuzzy, bj, so I'm not exactly sure this is right...

[Conveyor Belt]

Here's my question: how did these terms get into the Book of Mormon? If Lehi left Jerusalem around 600 BC there was still 200 years and two Aramaic kingdoms that would come into contact with the Nation of Israel before Greek was introduced to God’s people through Alexander the Great. “Alpha and Omega” are Greek terms. “Christ” is Greek for “anointed one.” Pre-Greek Hebrews would have used the term “Messiah.”


I'd mark it up to a translation issue. Anytime I have a problem with the Bible, I always get that it's a translation issue... maybe JS just used terms that would be more easily understood by those reading the KJV of the bible...

[Baloo]

Doc, I will try to get the answers for you as well... Thank you RHB, CB and Big John for your positive and enlightening posts with honest questions and sincere answers. It makes this thread a joy to read and post on...

I have abstained from coming out with this statement because I really get sick of the critics and negative feedback, but since there are some who are sincere, here goes... I was born and raised into a LDS church family. To keep this story as short as possible, my grandparents on my Mom's side of the family and all of her sibilings and their families are LDS... My Dad is an athiest, my Mom really never went to church much and asked to be ex-communicated because she felt guilty because she knew that she was not living my the church standards... She smokes, drinks, does drugs and has affairs... My Dad's parents never went to church either... As a kid my grandparents who are LDS would take me to church when I was around... when we were living in Mississippi, my cousins would take me to church with them. I grew up going to the LDS church, Baptists churches, Methodist churches, the Catholic church, the Presbyterian church and even to the Holy Roller's church a couple of times...

I eventually chose to be baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... I am a practicing Mormon as is commonly referred to, but as church members say an active member of the church. I am not perfect in any way and certainly do not know everything. I am gone so much that I am not in church very often, but go every chance I get... I have met many wonderful people in the church and many who were not so wonderful... I have been around many who have inspired me and many who have discouraged me... But I do know that the Book of Mormon is true... I know that President Gordon B. Hinkley is our modern day prophet.. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet... I know that we have 12 modern day apostles. I know that it seems far fetched to some and I don't blame them. I am not trying to convert anyone, but will do my best to help answer the questions that people have.... On another note, many of my dear loved ones are not members of the church. Do I think less of them? No! Do I think that they are going to hell? No! Do I agree with everything everyone in the church ever says? No! Do I understand everything all of the time? No, but I know that I can turn to the scripture and to prayer and find the answers I seek. Have I or will I post things on this site that are not things I would say in church? Yes, again I am not perfect... Again I thank you guys for the sincere and positive things that you have said on here about the LDS church and some of the members. I will be the first one to agree if you tell me that there are many who are hypocrites and who treat others like they are better than everyone else.. However, I will also be the first one to say that it is not how members are supposed to act. Please remember to not confuse the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints with any of the separitist groups who claim to have "broken away from the church..." They really are a scary bunch and have no affiliation with or endorsement by the church whatsoever...

I hope that people on this site will not do like many people have done to me when they find out that I am a member of the church and treat me diffferently... I am not any better or any worse than anyone else. I am just trying to find a little peace in this crazy world and help others when I can...

[big john]

bigjohn,

Thanks for the link. Despite what fez says, I'm not in the business of judging another faith. As I said, I am trying to have some basic questions I've had about the Mormon faith for a while answered.

I have another that maybe you can help me with: According to the Book of Mormon, a man named Lehi and his two sons (Nephi and Laman) left Jerusalem and migrated to the Americas around 600 BC.

While reading, I came across 3 Nephi 9:18 where the phrase “Alpha and Omega" are used. I found in 2 Nephi 25: 14-29, the word "Christ" used.

Here's my question: how did these terms get into the Book of Mormon? If Lehi left Jerusalem around 600 BC there was still 200 years and two Aramaic kingdoms that would come into contact with the Nation of Israel before Greek was introduced to God’s people through Alexander the Great. “Alpha and Omega” are Greek terms. “Christ” is Greek for “anointed one.” Pre-Greek Hebrews would have used the term “Messiah.”

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to how these golden tablets were translated, but if they contained a record of a people group that left Israel before the introduction of the Greek language, why would Greek words be used?

Again, I have many lifelong and dear friends who are fervent in their beliefs. I am simply trying to understand this faith system, which appears to have some fact and a lot of fiction rolling around in pop culture.

Help me out bigjohn!I thought mormon updated the language in it around 400AD but i may be wrong.i'll have to check with a member.

[Baloo]

Thanks Big John... I appreciate all of the knowledge that you share...

[RHB]

I hope that people on this site will not do like many people have done to me when they find out that I am a member of the church and treat me diffferently... I am not any better or any worse than anyone else. I am just trying to find a little peace in this crazy world and help others when I can...

Thank you for your honesty, Baloo. I respect you very much for the courage it took to make that statement. You're right - it is your intention in your actions that counts most. :clap:

[Conveyor Belt]

. But I do know that the Book of Mormon is true... I know that President Gordon B. Hinkley is our modern day prophet.. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet... I know that we have 12 modern day apostles.

Is it testimony meeting already? I guess so, as it's the first of the month...

Man, that statement brought back some memories... Mostly memories of me going up and saying those things and knowing that I didn't believe them. Wondering if I was the only one who didn't believe it. Wanting to believe in it so badly, but just couldn't. I'm just basking the the memories right now, Baloo...

I've asked repeatedly for the church to remove me from the rolls. I still get Christmas cards from the current bishop and get a call from a missionary every now and then to see if they can come over and visit with me. Every now and then, I'll give a missionary $20 to eat dinner on.

All this leaves me with a question... can I say I lost faith if I never had it to begin with?

[big john]

DANG CB,i FEEL THE SAME WAY.

[Baloo]

CB and Big John, I would answer that with a no... That you haven't lost faith that you never had... I have met many people who were raised in the church and never gained a testimony of the gospel... many who just go through the motions (or went throught the motions) beacause that is or was what was expected of them... I certainly do not sit in judgement on anyone and respect the courage that you had to walk away from something that you didn't believe even though you knew that it would hurt your loved ones... I am sure that it was not an easy decision that either of you made... I don't know what happened in either of your situations and just respect you both as adults to make the decisions that are best for you guys at this time... I am grateful that you are not running the church down and that you are posting truths about the church and not jaded falacies as so many people do... I respect both of you tremendously for that...

I know that there was a time in my life when I didn't have a testimony either... I would sit in sacrament meeting and wonder what on Earth I was doing there... Since my parents were not members and my brother and sister didn't ever go to church my mom, dad, brother and sister were all running around causing chaos in the community I would often hear other members talking about me and about my family... Cruely gossiping and running their mouths... I was crushed and angry and resentful for a very long time...

I realized then that I had never done any serious soul searching and that I wanted to know for a surety if the gospel was true or not... So, with an open heart and mind I set to reading the Book of Mormon... not as a text book or trying to disprove it, but reading it and praying about it... I will never forget the the feeling that came over me when I received the answers that I had sought... It was a feeling of complete peace and assurance.... It was a feeling that left me without doubt... I am grateful for that personal revelation and grateful for the scriptures... they are what I always turn to in my darkest hours and times of need... They have helped give me so much peace and comfort and understanding when other people or things in this world could not...

As I have said before I am not perfect, but I do have a firm testimony that the gospel is true... There is so much that I have not learned and there are still things that I do not understand... I have never been to the temple to perform any ordinances, but hope to someday... As I have said before, because I am in such remote areas so much of the time I don't get to church much, but I do take my scriptures with me everywhere I go. I say my prayers daily and check out the www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org) website and listen to the chior and to General Conference Sessions and read the articles...

As I have also said before, I have met a lot of wonderful people in the church and a lot of not so wonderful people... I don't judge people in this world by what religion they are or what skin color they are or where they came from... I look for the best in everyone and am truly grateful for the good people who in their own ways day to day just try to make the world a better place for all of us...