Lets raise the ante on mixing Relegion and Government

[KingMaker]

If we are to follow the present interpertertation of the separation of Church and State, then this would be the next natural step.

I say that any Church openly supporting a candidate or party should have it's tax exempt status revoked. That includes allowing candidates (local, state or nation) from speaking from the pulpit, using church vans to take voters to the polls, using Church property to forward a political agenda. It would also include distributing campaign propaganda from church property. Examples would be handing out completed sample ballots or giving out campaign signs.

[B.T. Justice]

I think this is really funny because my wife and I once employed an elderly woman to keep our children. I asked her once who she would be voting for in the upcoming election. She responded with, “I don’t know. They are going to tell us at church this Sunday.”

[SoMissTV]

I say that any Church openly supporting a candidate or party should have it's tax exempt status revoked.

This is already federal law.

[daisy]

This is already federal law.


I agree it is federal law. You would be amazed at how many bulletins outline what to look for and how many pastors tell the congregation. There are ways to do it w/o even saying the candidate's names but just urge to pick the one that is in line with certain issues.

The law is just on the books w/o a witness. Who is going to enforce it?

And I hear it is oftentimes a mutual relationship between some politicians and some churches. Selling influence on certain issues for the persuasion of a vote. You have to have evidence of it and who is going to tell on a pastor and still go there?

[virgo]

This is already federal law.

One that is apparently not enforced.

I remember covering an election in Alabama a few years ago and I went to the HQ of one of the locals who was running for the school board at the time (this had become a VERY heated race) and while I was there waiting on the results, I looked on a table and saw a mirage of church bulletins. They each included a sample ballot and had all the names marked on them. After the results were announced (and the candidate at whose HQ I was at won), I went to a couple and asked them why they voted for the candidate (whose name was Eleanor) they asked me, "Who is Eleanor?" They told me they took their bulletins with them and voted however their church told them to vote.

[CUPCAKE]

I’m guilty! As a believer in separation of church and state, I talked politics at church this morning. I admit that the current pain in my butt is all the political signs littering the roads and highways in Lamar County. While standing around “socializing,” which most of us tend to do, two people told about signs being placed in their yards without permission. Both were the “mini-billboards” that require digging holes to place in the ground. They went to bed last night and no signs were in their yards. When they left for church this morning, there they were. Both said, “If I was thinking about voting for him, I won’t do it now.” Both said they were removing the signs. They do seem to appear overnight. Is there a “sign gremlin” out there who works in the cover of darkness?

Having done past research on separation of church and state I agree with the posts on this thread thus far and feel we are singing off the same sheet of music. Forgive me for my temporary "backsliding" this morning.

[mac]

I agree it is federal law. You would be amazed at how many bulletins outline what to look for and how many pastors tell the congregation. There are ways to do it w/o even saying the candidate's names but just urge to pick the one that is in line with certain issues.

The law is just on the books w/o a witness. Who is going to enforce it?

And I hear it is oftentimes a mutual relationship between some politicians and some churches. Selling influence on certain issues for the persuasion of a vote. You have to have evidence of it and who is going to tell on a pastor and still go there?

I don't have a problem with a religious group voting for a candidate based on his stance on certain issues (that's what it's all about, after all), or with church leaders providing information to their members, provided the info is accurate.

The problem lies with people who don't bother to think or research on their own, and rely on their church leaders to tell them who to vote for. But hey, church folks aren't the only ones who vote for who they're told to.

[mac]

................. Both said they were removing the signs. They do seem to appear overnight. Is there a “sign gremlin” out there who works in the cover of darkness? ......................



My late cousin was a Sheriff's deputy in a town far away from here. The Sheriff there has been Sheriff for years, and he's a crooked guy. He made the deputies go put out campaign signs for a friend of his who was running for Constable. My cousin's father was running against him, and my cousin refused to put out the signs. He was fired. He did get his job back after a few weeks, but was killed under mysterious circumstances his first night back on the job.

Gremlins? Yeah, I believe in 'em.

[daisy]

My late cousin was a Sheriff's deputy in a town far away from here. The Sheriff there has been Sheriff for years, and he's a crooked guy. He made the deputies go put out campaign signs for a friend of his who was running for Constable. My cousin's father was running against him, and my cousin refused to put out the signs. He was fired. He did get his job back after a few weeks, but was killed under mysterious circumstances his first night back on the job.

Gremlins? Yeah, I believe in 'em.


Sorry to hear about your friend's father being killed under those circumstances.

[daisy]

I don't have a problem with a religious group voting for a candidate based on his stance on certain issues (that's what it's all about, after all), or with church leaders providing information to their members, provided the info is accurate.

The problem lies with people who don't bother to think or research on their own, and rely on their church leaders to tell them who to vote for. But hey, church folks aren't the only ones who vote for who they're told to.

The problem I have with it that a church has a tax-exempt status and that comes into ????? with the IRS when they start in on politics--preaching or dispensing info to members under the guise of a church.

I say if an organization is going to be a church and enjoy taw-exempt status, abide by the law. Or pay the taxes if you are a political organization. Anyone else feel this?

Oh and Cupcake, I would be upset if someone put signs in my yard w/o my persmission.

Without giving names and churches, I know preachers that have overstepped bounds preaching and Sunday School teachers and lost members and split the church.

I have a friend that was highly offended and felt it was an insult to her God- given intelligence and a waste of her time. She went for Sunday School.

[CUPCAKE]

My late cousin was a Sheriff's deputy in a town far away from here. The Sheriff there has been Sheriff for years, and he's a crooked guy. He made the deputies go put out campaign signs for a friend of his who was running for Constable. My cousin's father was running against him, and my cousin refused to put out the signs. He was fired. He did get his job back after a few weeks, but was killed under mysterious circumstances his first night back on the job.

Gremlins? Yeah, I believe in 'em.

Mac,that's scary stuff, isn't it?

Glad to know I'm not the only one who "believes"...I think I just found myself a buddy.

[dollfus46]

two people told about signs being placed in their yards without permission.

Well, you know my solution to things like that............Just shoot the bastards. They won't do it agan. Nor will their Political buddies.:-D

[SueScribe]

This is already federal law.

Yes, and I think the Congress should take it one step further:

Enact legislation that would prohibit members of such "churches" to claim a tax exemption for charitable or religious donations. That should put the skids under some of the church-o-politico shenanigans.

[B.T. Justice]

Yes, and I think the Congress should take it one step further:

Enact legislation that would prohibit members of such "churches" to claim a tax exemption for charitable or religious donations. That should put the skids under some of the church-o-politico shenanigans.

Are you suggesting that 503c status be eliminated all together, or just crack down on those who use tax exempt organizations as PAC's?

[58ford]

Is there anything intrinsically wrong with seeking spiritual guidance to make political choices?

[threekidspa]

While I don't think a church has any business pushing a political agenda, I don't agree that their tax exempt status should be taken away for encouraging their members to take part in it. For example:

1. I don't think giving out pre-filled sample ballots is appropriate and expecting someone to copy it in the voting booth is appropriate...EVER. This is also a common practice in the NAACP, AARP, AFL?CIO and other unions. If there is a penalty for this practice, it should be a uniform penalty applicable to anyone that is caught doing it. Informing members of who stands where on issues important to them is fine, but there is still no excuse for a person just becoming a member of a voting block without coming to their own informed opinions.
2. Offering rides to the poll?! Come on. Thats common practice also, and is often the only means for some to get to the polls, regardless of the source of the ride. Preventing such could be construed as disenfranchisement. Yes, that term applies to more than just minorities and non-english speaking people.
3. Remember, historically, churches have always served as meeting places as well as worship places. (some still hold AA meetings, boy scout meetings, etc.) Do we remove their tax exempt status for doing things like this as well?

Just my two cents...flame suit on!

[threekidspa]

Is there anything intrinsically wrong with seeking spiritual guidance to make political choices?
Nope, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all.

[58ford]

Hmmmmmm.........
This thread's got me thinin'
If someone wants to vote, but is unwilling to put in the effort to inform themselves of the candidates, what would be wrong with picking a source they trust church, union, or other organization that and using a pre-filled out ballot to make their decisions?
Don't jump on me here I'm just playin' devil's advocate for the sake of conversation.

[threekidspa]

Hmmmmmm.........
This thread's got me thinin'
If someone wants to vote, but is unwilling to put in the effort to inform themselves of the candidates, what would be wrong with picking a source they trust church, union, or other organization that and using a pre-filled out ballot to make their decisions?
Don't jump on me here I'm just playin' devil's advocate for the sake of conversation.
Or, how about when it's hard to even get clear information about where candidates stand? We hardly ever get to ask candidates questions directly....abd

[threekidspa]

what the? Sorry for the multiple posts...I think my thumb got to close to the little pad thingy...

[B.T. Justice]

Hmmmmmm.........
This thread's got me thinin'
If someone wants to vote, but is unwilling to put in the effort to inform themselves of the candidates, what would be wrong with picking a source they trust church, union, or other organization that and using a pre-filled out ballot to make their decisions?
Don't jump on me here I'm just playin' devil's advocate for the sake of conversation.
No, I think you make a very valid point as does Brent. I have mixed thoughts on this.
Hypothetically suppose I hold a part-time position at a local church. Should that prohibit me from actively campaigning for my neighbor who is running for mayor? Under some interpretations I have crossed the line and threatened the tax exempt status of my church.

[58ford]

I don't think that as long as people have a faith that religion & politics can ever be separated. and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing.