Should the U.S. adopt Socialized medicine?

[dollfus46]

I don't know if we've ever gotten into this, but do you think the U.S. is ready to install a socialized medical program whereby, 1.There are cost controls built in (2) universal access (3) full range of medical services available. And should we?
I don't know how to set up a poll but lets toss the idea around respectfully:smt023 Looks like we're going to have to deal with it sooner than we realize.

[58ford]

No.

[RGDoherty]

I reserve space later in this thread to expand as I am at work and don't have much time before my next meeting. My short answer is after we set up everybody with the same pay no matter what job, and the government provides us all with the same housing, and vehicles........Why not socialize grocery stores?.....I hear they were all the rage in the late 80s in the former USSR.

[jkspatty]

I'm very interested in this issue, but I need more information on the negatives and positives. Could someone elaborate further than just yes or no.

[dollfus46]

The trick in the question is, you can't have all three in my Arrogant Assed opinion. And once you start it you'll never be able to discontinue it. Just like SS.

[True Believer]

When you go to a third-party pay system--with the government paying--costs go up and availability goes down.

Costs will go up because of the levels of bureacracy are in place and abuse of the system by those who put no value on something they get for free. Which leads to why availiability will go down....

Availability goes down because why limit yourself? When the government pays, this self-regulating system is damaged. So there's more demand on the system and it takes longer to see the doctor. When you have to pay out of your own pocket, you think twice before going to the ER for a cold. You get a second opinion before going with an expensive procedure.

Most importantly, quality of care will suffer. If the government pays, they will also regulate how much they will pay. Future doctors will not enter into the profession because they can't recoup their educational expenses, etc. You've taken capitalism out of the equation and their ability to get paid what they're worth is gone. Yes, some will enter the profession out of a "calling" but I see a day when doctors could be like some of our public school teachers who are simply fed up with all of the paperwork--they just want to teach.

Think twice before you sign on to a politician who wants to give "every child insurance." The truly needy ARE getting insurance through Medicaid. They're opening a pandoras box of entitlements to a younger generation that will expect it when they reach working age, too, rather than learning to value an education that will help them help themselves.

[sparrow]

I've always felt that it's strange that the USA is the only industrialized country in the world that's without a comprehensive form of socialized medicine. The system we have now is far from perfect. Many people already abuse the Medicare and Medicaid system along with doctors and hospitals that inflate their services to profit from the government. It seems to me that we could study other models already in place in Canada and Europe and come up with a plan that could work using the best of what the rest of the world already does. The cost of medical insurance and care here is high and many people in our country simply can't afford it. The arguments that True Believer stated are valid, but I'm not so sure that quality of care would suffer. Many people go to countries with socialized medicine now for procedures that are cost prohibative here. Doctors there are trained in government facilities for a fraction of what Med School costs here. This would require a tremendous change in the way business is done now. One good thing is we would be able to tell our no good health insurers to stick it up their collective asses. No more insurance industry lobbyists! All I'm saying is that this is an idea that has needed to be explored for years and also has many postive points as well as negatives.

[Michelle]

Many people go to countries with socialized medicine now for procedures that are cost prohibative here.

But probably just as many people come here to pay more for procedures so they do not have to wait for months in a country with socialized medicine.

[chaz]

I would like to see a study of what Tri-Care benefits for retired military and dependants costs. There is no cost to the insured, so they are free to use/abuse the system as much as they want. (to TB's point) Granted, many retired mil. aren't apt to waste the resources of the country they fought/served for. It would be interesting to see though.

[58ford]

The only people (other than liberals) who think socialized medicine is a good idea are either:

Wanting a free ride
Fell asleep in Economics 101

[countrygirl]

If I were a cursing person, I would say @#$% no. I have a grandchild that would probably not be alive today if the US had socialized medicine.

[BlueDogDemocrat]

No, socialized medicine is not the answer. The answer to the healthcare crisis is hidden deep in the pocket of the insurance companies and carried on the back of the millions that go without health insurance.

[Kitty]

If I were a cursing person, I would say @#$% no. I have a grandchild that would probably not be alive today if the US had socialized medicine.

I knew someone who likely would be alive today had she stayed in the US for medical treatment and not returned to her home (and socialized medicine) in the UK.

[dollfus46]

When you go to a third-party pay system--with the government paying--costs go up and availability goes down.

Costs will go up because of the levels of bureacracy are in place and abuse of the system by those who put no value on something they get for free. Which leads to why availiability will go down....

Availability goes down because why limit yourself? When the government pays, this self-regulating system is damaged. So there's more demand on the system and it takes longer to see the doctor. When you have to pay out of your own pocket, you think twice before going to the ER for a cold. You get a second opinion before going with an expensive procedure.

Most importantly, quality of care will suffer. If the government pays, they will also regulate how much they will pay. Future doctors will not enter into the profession because they can't recoup their educational expenses, etc. You've taken capitalism out of the equation and their ability to get paid what they're worth is gone. Yes, some will enter the profession out of a "calling" but I see a day when doctors could be like some of our public school teachers who are simply fed up with all of the paperwork--they just want to teach.

Think twice before you sign on to a politician who wants to give "every child insurance." The truly needy ARE getting insurance through Medicaid. They're opening a pandoras box of entitlements to a younger generation that will expect it when they reach working age, too, rather than learning to value an education that will help them help themselves.

You pretty much nailed it, TB. I was reading about the problems with it in England. What a mess. That's part of the reason they have Muslim doctors. Easy way to get in there because all the doctors have gone to the US or Australia because they are overworked and underpaid to cut costs. Here's another piece of shocking info: At the end of this year there will be more babies named Muhammed in England than John. Not in the nation, just babies born in 2007. Complacency might be coming home to roost, eh?

[selmore]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

--------Karl Marx

[fuzzis]

You pretty much nailed it, TB. I was reading about the problems with it in England. What a mess. That's part of the reason they have Muslim doctors. Easy way to get in there because all the doctors have gone to the US or Australia because they are overworked and underpaid to cut costs. Here's another piece of shocking info: At the end of this year there will be more babies named Muhammed in England than John. Not in the nation, just babies born in 2007. Complacency might be coming home to roost, eh?

What exactly is the connection between socialized medicine, a lax immigration policy, and babies named Mohamed? And what conclusion are you trying to draw with regard to whether America should adopt socialized medicine?

I tend to be liberal...and a little slow...so I often need things spelled out for me.

[CircusRide]

Socialized medicine? Is that........

http://www.princeton.edu/~ssdp/Medical-MarijuanaDesign.JPG

[selmore]

The theory is, if you put a Dr on a salary, you've taken away alot of incentive for people to aspire to become a Doctor. You still have the altrueism aspect, but that only drives a small percentage of youngsters going to college.
NOw if incentive is taken out, it becomes more of a money thing. When the Dr's salary becomes a money thing, the market goes for the cheapest. Muslims in Europe are like hispanic-americans in the US, so when the market goes for the cheapest, you get the muslims.

[onlyme]

I would like to see a study of what Tri-Care benefits for retired military and dependants costs. There is no cost to the insured, so they are free to use/abuse the system as much as they want. (to TB's point) Granted, many retired mil. aren't apt to waste the resources of the country they fought/served for. It would be interesting to see though.

Years ago, when today's retirees voluntarily signed up for active duty, they were promised FREE healthcare for life. It was one of the big incentives to recruit new soldiers. Not only was this promise broken ( there IS cost to the insured, it's called deductible/ point-of-service fee/cost share etc. ), but fees for retirees - and active duty soldiers - are constantly rising while benefits are being whittled away. Don't envy them their measly benefits. They have sacrificed for years for a pittance, considering the hours and hard work they put in.

[onlyme]

The theory is, if you put a Dr on a salary, you've taken away alot of incentive for people to aspire to become a Doctor. You still have the altrueism aspect, but that only drives a small percentage of youngsters going to college.
NOw if incentive is taken out, it becomes more of a money thing. When the Dr's salary becomes a money thing, the market goes for the cheapest. Muslims in Europe are like hispanic-americans in the US, so when the market goes for the cheapest, you get the muslims.

Why should "socialized" mean putting a doctor on a salary? That's communism. I would support a system that required everybody who earns a certain amount to enroll in a health care plan. Spread the cost and the risk. Annual check-ups should be provided free of cost which might prevent bigger, more costly problems in the future. Works for dental care, why not regular medical care?

[Elle May]

I don't know what the answer is here but it is absolutely ridiculous the way health care rises each day, i.e., why should I pay the hospital $6.00 for a Tylenol when I can buy a month's supply at a local store for the same amount of money, if not less. And the same holds true with a feminine pad, a telfa pad and anything else used. A lot of times the ones that need health insurance the most can't afford it because if you have any kind of health problem the cost rises so dramatically that if you pay health insurance premiums, you simply can't afford to eat. I was in the medical profession for 20+ years, the systems in place are over-abused by patients as well as physicians and until there is someone in charge who can get control over this major problem, matters will only get worse.

If I have a medical emergency and end up having surgery, I can afford to pay the hospital and doctor on a monthly basis for much less (1/2) what it would cost for us to have medical insurance (1200.+/month).

The other problem with costs incurred while in the hospital is that most times there are pain meds and other things prescribed that you never use but because they were prescribed and placed in your room or in the med cart you are charged for them. Although you have paid for them, you don't get to take them when you leave. By damn, if I pay for, it is mine and I should be able to take it with me when I leave, even if I flush it down the toilet or toss it in the garbage can, at least I know what happened to what I paid for. It is pointless and a financial burden, especially to those who are paying out of their own pocket.

I've looked into a group plan through my business but there again, they stick it to me because I have so few employees.

Off my soapbox and on to more pleasant conversation.

[Butterball]

NO........


but, the upward spiral of medical costs has to end somewhere......
I'm just not sure Socialized Medicine is the answer....

How about shooting lawyers?

[TheCapitalist]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

--------Karl Marx

You nailed it! Anyone who thinks socialism is the answer has many places they can go experience this fully. Jesus! How far have we come? Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." And he was a liberal Democrat! Now, it's what can the government do for me? My God! Let's all get hammer and sicle tattoos! A red star on our chest! I'm from the government and I'm here to help you! If this continues the producers of this country will abandon it and find a place where they can be....... FREE!

When one persons right to my money is the sole fact that he did not earn it himself, were screwed. The fact that many even consider socialism as a viable alternative scares the hell out of me. What does capitalism mean to you? Kruschev was right. They'll take this country without firing a shot! God help my children and grandchildren.

[Elle May]

When one persons right to my money is the sole fact that he did not earn it himself, were screwed.

Aren't we already there? We already pay for lots of folks to sit on their butts and do nothing but collect our money.:smt118

[bpitt]

I don't know if we've ever gotten into this, but do you think the U.S. is ready to install a socialized medical program whereby, 1.There are cost controls built in (2) universal access (3) full range of medical services available. And should we?
I don't know how to set up a poll but lets toss the idea around respectfully:smt023 Looks like we're going to have to deal with it sooner than we realize.
You want to toss the idea around respectfully? You've picked the wrong group, nah, just kidding. I don't think we should.

[bpitt]

You nailed it! Anyone who thinks socialism is the answer has many places they can go experience this fully. Jesus! How far have we come? Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." And he was a liberal Democrat! Now, it's what can the government do for me? My God! Let's all get hammer and sicle tattoos! A red star on our chest! I'm from the government and I'm here to help you! If this continues the producers of this country will abandon it and find a place where they can be....... FREE!

When one persons right to my money is the sole fact that he did not earn it himself, were screwed. The fact that many even consider socialism as a viable alternative scares the hell out of me. What does capitalism mean to you? Kruschev was right. They'll take this country without firing a shot! God help my children and grandchildren.
Preach it on brother!!!!!!

[dollfus46]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

--------Karl Marx
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. - F.D.R's New Deal. But that's another thread yet to be entered.

[dollfus46]

What exactly is the connection between socialized medicine, a lax immigration policy, and babies named Mohamed? And what conclusion are you trying to draw with regard to whether America should adopt socialized medicine?

I tend to be liberal...and a little slow...so I often need things spelled out for me.

That's a fair question, so I don't think sarcasm is needed to defend it. But a fair question deserves a fair answer. I'll try to be succinct.
Socialized medicine in England is a mess. Long lines of patients and overworked doctors. To curb costs they cut doctor's salaries or fees. Forced many doctors to seek employment where there was no socialized medicine and they could make a living.... U.S. and Australia primarily. This leaves the door open, coupled with lax immigration laws, for Muslim doctors to easily get into England. The last terrorist plot that was intercepted involved just that......Muslim doctors from Iraq, Iran etc.
I find it odd that an Anglican country would suddenly have more male babies named Muhammad than John, don't you? There are hundreds of Muslim terrorist cells in England today, perhaps more......fact. But that was an aside to my post, almost a curiosity, and not the point. Point is, the terrorists have found yet one more way to infiltrate into England....socialized medicine. Just my opinion and a few others smarter than I.

[dollfus46]

Why should "socialized" mean putting a doctor on a salary? That's communism. I would support a system that required everybody who earns a certain amount to enroll in a health care plan. Spread the cost and the risk. Annual check-ups should be provided free of cost which might prevent bigger, more costly problems in the future. Works for dental care, why not regular medical care?

Do you know the difference between socialism and communism? I'm not being a smartie pants (apologies to Flowergirl :smt023) I had to ask that very question in school.

[dollfus46]

I don't know what the answer is here but it is absolutely ridiculous the way health care rises each day, i.e., why should I pay the hospital $6.00 for a Tylenol when I can buy a month's supply at a local store for the same amount of money, if not less. And the same holds true with a feminine pad, a telfa pad and anything else used. A lot of times the ones that need health insurance the most can't afford it because if you have any kind of health problem the cost rises so dramatically that if you pay health insurance premiums, you simply can't afford to eat. I was in the medical profession for 20+ years, the systems in place are over-abused by patients as well as physicians and until there is someone in charge who can get control over this major problem, matters will only get worse.

If I have a medical emergency and end up having surgery, I can afford to pay the hospital and doctor on a monthly basis for much less (1/2) what it would cost for us to have medical insurance (1200.+/month).

The other problem with costs incurred while in the hospital is that most times there are pain meds and other things prescribed that you never use but because they were prescribed and placed in your room or in the med cart you are charged for them. Although you have paid for them, you don't get to take them when you leave. By damn, if I pay for, it is mine and I should be able to take it with me when I leave, even if I flush it down the toilet or toss it in the garbage can, at least I know what happened to what I paid for. It is pointless and a financial burden, especially to those who are paying out of their own pocket.

I've looked into a group plan through my business but there again, they stick it to me because I have so few employees.

Off my soapbox and on to more pleasant conversation.

Heh heh heh. One big "ATTABOY, GIRL" for Elle!! But I did close my eyes and cover my ears when you got to .........you know.....(whispers) feminine pads. :oops:

[dollfus46]

NO........


but, the upward spiral of medical costs has to end somewhere......
I'm just not sure Socialized Medicine is the answer....

How about shooting lawyers?
That's a start, but I'm still holding on to the "toss your sick spouse off the top of a building" solution.;)

[Conveyor Belt]

Socialism is communism light. Regulated Capitalism, like the US, is socialism light. We have many socialist policies in place that most people think are God given rights and regulations.

Me, I prefer the unbridled capitalism of the founding days of our country.

But on topic, I don't like the idea of government issued health care, for many, many reasons. Least of which is quality of care.

People think the government owes them something/everything. The government should only provide national defense and provide safe passage on highways. That's it. Anything more is overstepping it's intended purpose.

[Conveyor Belt]

Anyone who wants free healthcare, just go look at the Forrest County Health Department vs. a Hattiesburg Clinic Satalite Clinic. One is a government run agency, the other isn't. Compare and contrast the two for what they do. Which would you prefer to go into?

Cause that's what you're going to get if we get socialized medicine. Run down hospitals, long, long, long lines, and an 'I dont' give a sh!t' attitude from the employees who work there. Ever try to have a government employee fired because they treated you poorly??? Yeah...

[amanda]

I'm not hip to socializing medicine. But I do believe that there needs to be an overhaul of our current system. Insurance companies and hospitals are milking those of us who have insurance for those who don't. Shooting lawyers isn't the answer. Tort Reform was screamed to be the solution, that it would reduce insurance premiums and the like - has anyone noticed any difference in their premiums? No. And you won't either. Now the only thing that Tort Reform has done is give carte blanche to doctors to ignore what their patients say or not spend adequate time to properly diagnose and treat their patients.

[dollfus46]

I'm not hip to socializing medicine. But I do believe that there needs to be an overhaul of our current system. Insurance companies and hospitals are milking those of us who have insurance for those who don't. Shooting lawyers isn't the answer. Tort Reform was screamed to be the solution, that it would reduce insurance premiums and the like - has anyone noticed any difference in their premiums? No. And you won't either. Now the only thing that Tort Reform has done is give carte blanche to doctors to ignore what their patients say or not spend adequate time to properly diagnose and treat their patients.
I don't know about torts except to eat um hot with cold milk, but socialized medicine brings the same poor quality care from doctors who are overworked. I read that many doctors in England don't even diagnose on a new patient. Don't have time. If, IF they come back a second time with the same complaint then the doctor will pay attention to them.
Good tort reform, in my opinion is assigning punitive damages to charity and have it done by a judge on any civil case, IF the judge actually thinks neglegence is involved instead of pure bad luck accident. No person is entitled to profit from another and certainly not any attorney who happened to be lucky enough to have someone walk into his/her office.

[amanda]

I don't know about torts except to eat um hot with cold milk, but socialized medicine brings the same poor quality care from doctors who are overworked. I read that many doctors in England don't even diagnose on a new patient. Don't have time. If, IF they come back a second time with the same complaint then the doctor will pay attention to them.

And that's why I said I didn't think Socialized Medicine was the answer. But our current system is so screwed up and many like to lay that at the door of lawyers, but ultimately doctors wouldn't be getting sued if they did their job.

True story. I had a neighbor who had a baby. The baby was checked over by the Pediatrician when it was born, said everything was perfect. The parents brought the baby home, and since this was the couples 3rd child they were aware of how babies should act, feed, behave, etc. After a week home, the parents brought the baby back to the Pediatrician and told him that something was wrong. That the baby didn't seem to be breathing right and at times it's lips turned blue. The doctor checked over the child - said nothing was wrong, and sent them home. The next week, they did the same thing - but with a different pediatrican from the same group. The doctor spent 3 mins with the couple, reviewed the chart, and told them that they were just being parinoid and go home. That night, the baby died. After an autopsy was performed, they found a large hole in the infants heart. Should the doctors be sued? Should they be given a free pass to do the same to another couple and another baby? Or should they pay out their a$$? To me - they should pay and pay big. I could relate story after story just like this one.

I'm all for stopping friviolous lawsuits, but when you have one like above, then they should pay.

[Elle May]

Now the only thing that Tort Reform has done is give carte blanche to doctors to ignore what their patients say or not spend adequate time to properly diagnose and treat their patients.

Yes, I agree with this statement. If the doctor had listened to me, I would not have spent well over $3000 (out of my pocket-no insurance) on a medication that I was taking because he didn't listen. I was treated for 1 1/2 years for a problem I didn't have. Imagine that.:smt102

[amanda]

Yes, I agree with this statement. If the doctor had listened to me, I would not have spent well over $3000 (out of my pocket-no insurance) on a medication that I was taking because he didn't listen. I was treated for 1 1/2 years for a problem I didn't have. Imagine that.:smt102


Oh, I have NO problem imagining that. :) For the money they make, you would think that they could pay attention and do their job. I had 2 different pediatricans at Ocshner in New Orleans tell me my son had growing pains, only to have him go paralized from the waist down. I took him to another pediatrican who diagnosed him with Guillan Barre syndrome and he spent a week in the hospital for treatments and 6 months in PT to get over it. I have no faith in our medical professionals. It seems they are more concerned with the number of people they can see in a day to make even more money then providing quality treatment.

[onlyme]

I read that many doctors in England don't even diagnose on a new patient. Don't have time. If, IF they come back a second time with the same complaint then the doctor will pay attention to them.


I am not in England and yet the exact same thing is happening to me now here in Hattiesburg. The good doctor will not get a second chance though. I am not a guinea pig.

[onlyme]

Do you know the difference between socialism and communism?

:smt045

[fuzzis]

I keep hearing these descriptions of socialized medicine, and I keep wondering how it's really all that much different than what we have going on now.

I had to go to three neurologists before one would take my seizures seriously, and once I was diagnosed, after six months of treatment, she decided to back my medication down over my objections. When the seizures came back with a vengeance, she bumped me back up...but basically told me I had to live with the side effects of the medication (reminds me of an article earlier this week on msnbc.com about doctors ignoring patients complaints about side effects). Or here in MS a year and a half ago...couldn't find a doctor to examine a potentially life-threatening situation because they didn't approve. Had to drive to Mobile...and my Sner seriously considered flying me home. It was that serious.

So. It seems to me that at least in terms of standard of care, we're already there.

[BlueDogDemocrat]

I keep hearing these descriptions of socialized medicine, and I keep wondering how it's really all that much different than what we have going on now.

I had to go to three neurologists before one would take my seizures seriously, and once I was diagnosed, after six months of treatment, she decided to back my medication down over my objections. When the seizures came back with a vengeance, she bumped me back up...but basically told me I had to live with the side effects of the medication (reminds me of an article earlier this week on msnbc.com about doctors ignoring patients complaints about side effects). Or here in MS a year and a half ago...couldn't find a doctor to examine a potentially life-threatening situation because they didn't approve. Had to drive to Mobile...and my Sner seriously considered flying me home. It was that serious.

So. It seems to me that at least in terms of standard of care, we're already there.

I disagree. The diagnosis and subsequent treatment of an individual medical condiction is a highly individualized and subjective thought process. Medicine is not "black and white"-- instead the appropriate treatment for serious medical conditions is oft found out in the "grey area" of medical practice.Thus, the appropriateness of the standard of care undertaken by a doctor can normally only be gauged on a patient-by-patient basis. I think it would be rather overreaching to draw conclusions on the US healthcare's standard of care based on your own layman perception on the appropriateness of some neurologist's treatment and diagnosis.

There may be problem doctors here, but our private system provides for a standard of care usually superior to that of socialized medicine.

[fuzzis]

I disagree. The diagnosis and subsequent treatment of an individual medical condiction is a highly individualized and subjective thought process. Medicine is not "black and white"-- instead the appropriate treatment for serious medical conditions is oft found out in the "grey area" of medical practice.Thus, the appropriateness of the standard of care undertaken by a doctor can normally only be gauged on a patient-by-patient basis. I think it would be rather overreaching to draw conclusions on the US healthcare's standard of care based on your own layman perception on the appropriateness of some neurologist's treatment and diagnosis.

There may be problem doctors here, but our private system provides for a standard of care usually superior to that of socialized medicine.

:laugh::laugh:

Apparently you're missing that I'm not the only one who has had doctors push patients out of their office or misdiagnose or ignore complaints or had to wait gawd-awful long amounts of time to see a doctor.

[Elle May]

I disagree. The diagnosis and subsequent treatment of an individual medical condiction is a highly individualized and subjective thought process. Medicine is not "black and white"-- instead the appropriate treatment for serious medical conditions is oft found out in the "grey area" of medical practice.Thus, the appropriateness of the standard of care undertaken by a doctor can normally only be gauged on a patient-by-patient basis. I think it would be rather overreaching to draw conclusions on the US healthcare's standard of care based on your own layman perception on the appropriateness of some neurologist's treatment and diagnosis.

There may be problem doctors here, but our private system provides for a standard of care usually superior to that of socialized medicine.

That is true to some degree but...
:laugh::laugh:

Apparently you're missing that I'm not the only one who has had doctors push patients out of their office or misdiagnose or ignore complaints or had to wait gawd-awful long amounts of time to see a doctor.

You make an appointment to see a physician which takes 2-4 weeks to get, then you are there on time and it takes 2 hours to see him/her and some of them aren't even listening. That was apparent in my case also where I was grossly misdiagnosed with acid reflux when it was my gallbladder. Granted at some point I would have had to have the surgery but my problem is this: Medications are highly overpriced, for some conditions worse than others, and if they would get off their pedestal and listen to what patients are saying, proper diagnosis would come much quicker. No one knows better than you how you react to a medication and no one knows better how your body feels. Listen up Doc and then try a diagnosis.

[CircusRide]

Anytime my income is being redistributed to someone else, I'm against it. I earned my money. No one else should be entitled to it.
You're basically taking from those with better incomes to pay for those with less income (don't even get me started on SSI). Now, the last time I checked, that goes completely against what was established in our constitution.
Now take Canada for example. They've made it illegal to purchase private insurance for basic health care. So, they're telling their people they don't have a right to better health care if available. It's just the standard health care for everybody. You get what you get and nothing else.
By the way, socialized medicine isn't really free care. Each citizen is taxed about $1200 per year (if they actually hold a job). A family with 2 kids pays over $5000 a year in taxes to the system. That's more than I pay each year.
Canada basically has a monopolized health care system. With any monopoly, there's little money spent to improve services, because ...........they have no competition. Canada lacks family clinics and home health care. They only utilize general, non-profit hospitals and universities for their health care. People are abusing the system to make hospitals nursing homes.
Another problem with the system is basic economics- supply and demand. If something is perceived as free, the demand skyrockets, the supply drops, and a shortage occurs. Hospital equipment is outdated and the services are poor.

I could go on.......

[dollfus46]

[quote=Conveyor Belt;326653]Socialism is communism light. Regulated Capitalism, like the US, is socialism light. We have many socialist policies in place that most people think are God given rights and regulations.
quote]

Heh heh heh. Never heard it defined like that, CB but I like it. :smt023

[BlueDogDemocrat]

:laugh::laugh:

Apparently you're missing that I'm not the only one who has had doctors push patients out of their office or misdiagnose or ignore complaints or had to wait gawd-awful long amounts of time to see a doctor.

I've been to the doctor umpteen hundred times, even been under the knife before. I've never had any problems, other than waiting in line from time to time. I've waited in longer lines for a good steak.

While my own experiences have all been good, I don't assume for one minutes the healthcare system is flawless. Point is, you shouldn't assume your own experiences are a microism of the actual state of affairs, especially when it comes to the practice of medicine.

[chaz]

I'm not all for socialized medicine, but does anyone really think this is the best way? If this is a nation of capitalism, free markets and choice, why are we so limited in how we can be insured. The current problems are a result of over regulation of the insurance industry.

How can any one come up with and implement a new solution when the law is stacked against him?

[BlueDogDemocrat]

The current problems are a result of over regulation of the insurance industry.

:smt009

Oh, sweet Jesus, blessed be the man that believes his insurance company is looking out for him, for he shall inherent many medical bills.

[endofthetrail]

:laugh::laugh:

Apparently you're missing that I'm not the only one who has had doctors push patients out of their office or misdiagnose or ignore complaints or had to wait gawd-awful long amounts of time to see a doctor.
I think people forget that some docs graduate at the top of their class and some just get by but they all have the same piece of paper;)

[dollfus46]

I'm not all for socialized medicine, but does anyone really think this is the best way? If this is a nation of capitalism, free markets and choice, why are we so limited in how we can be insured. The current problems are a result of over regulation of the insurance industry.

How can any one come up with and implement a new solution when the law is stacked against him?

The reason is known as very powerful Insurance Lobby. No industry on earth is as wealthy and they didn't get there by lowering premiums and paying off claims.

[True Believer]

Fuzzis comment that we're almost there is, well, almost there...

Our current system is a three-party pay: insurance companies pay.
Socialized medicine is also a three-party pay: the government pays.

At least with insurance, they will squeeze every dime out and run it more like a business than the government and the level of bureaucrats taking out their chunk is slightly less, however, it is simply the lesser of two evils.

Pay attention to the growing number of doctors who are moving their practices from taking government payment (medicare, medicaid) and the regulation and price controls that go with it to truly private, for-pay practices. The capitalistic market is already in cosmetic surgery and here's the cycle:

1. Plastic Surgeons make good money because our society is one of the richest in the world and there is a DEMAND in society to look good.
2. New doctors see how much plastic surgeons make and want to make money, too.
3. New doctors become plastic surgeons and the SUPPLY of doctors goes up.
4. When new doctors enter into competition with each other, the must compete for patients.
5. To compete, they must be a. better in their craft (no sista's is going to recommend a bad boob job) b. have better facilities (hence, the recovery "spas" and c. prices decline (lasix surgery is a prime example). Essentially Quality of Care gets better.
6. As the competition continues and prices decline, more patients with less disposable income can actually afford these doctor's elective services.
7. And the cycle continues: if the demand of doctors increases as more patients enter the market, more doctors enter the market which increases supply which fuels competition and better services which attract more new patients, and on and on.

I'm not saying that we will go to entirely private health care system, devoid of insurance, however, if more people had health savings accounts for routine and had health insurance for catastrophic care, they would pay attention to what they paid for, the quality they received, and we could cut out the layers of insurance bureaucracy, regulation, and monopolistic profit.

The poor you will always have with you--and we should care for them--, however, it seems like more and more people feel like they are "poor"--especially this new child health-care system that so many are hollering for that gives insurance to those under the age of 25 in families where income is $40,000 PER YEAR PER SPOUSE--that's $80K a year for husband and wife dual earners!!!!! They AIN'T poor!

It's the simple fact that in a nation like ours, you truly can live like a king, but greed and envy is spoiling the land of opportunity.

[TamHill]

To chime in--universal care is simply Robin Hood medicine and it provides a bureacratic nightmare. If you think there are problems now just wait until the government clerk decides if you really need the diagnostic test for liver inflammation! Save us!
Health care should be something someone works for and earns just like a home or an education or assisted-living care. Medicare is not free. People pay into it and there are deductibles, co-pays, and additional premiums. Working people pay into Social Security and medicare and it addresses the weakest members of our society. Then medicaid supports eligible people who are in a temporary bind or who have been hit hard by disability or unusual circumstances. These are good programs and quite enough in my opinion. Anyone else should plan their life to get their own health care. Sorry. But I don't want to spend my youth preparing for life, delaying gratification, doing without, and then have to pay the health care for someone else who sat around and had six kids without a husband, job, or future.
There are some gaps to fill. The employers who don't kick in. The temporarily unemployed, and the preexisting condition if one loses a job and then has to move to another plan.These can be addressed without turning everything into socialized medicine. It would be the worst thing in the world for our standard of care and it would continue to send the message that one doesn't have to take care of one's own family.
In Sweden, the state provides just about everything and the taxes are around 80% and a few work and the rest coast, according to Swedes I have spoken with. There is little incentive among the young to struggle. It is not a word they are familar with. They are very self-absorbed going from one governement sponsored "learning" trip to another and doing a little skiing along the way.
We are a different society and I think it makes us innovative, energetic, and strong. We need to address the laggards and get them to become contributing members of society and not hangers-on. We need to get those who don't to become those who do and not change our society from one of self-sufficiency and individual effort to another socialist state.

[dollfus46]

To chime in--universal care is simply Robin Hood medicine and it provides a bureacratic nightmare. If you think there are problems now just wait until the government clerk decides if you really need the diagnostic test for liver inflammation! Save us!

Health care should be something someone works for and earns just like a home or an education or assisted-living care. Medicare is not free. People pay into it and there are deductibles, co-pays, and additional premiums. Working people pay into Social Security and medicare and it addresses the weakest members of our society. Then medicaid supports eligible people who are in a temporary bind or who have been hit hard by disability or unusual circumstances. These are good programs and quite enough in my opinion. Anyone else should plan their life to get their own health care. Sorry. But I don't want to spend my youth preparing for life, delaying gratification, doing without, and then have to pay the health care for someone else who sat around and had six kids without a husband, job, or future.

There are some gaps to fill. The employers who don't kick in. The temporarily unemployed, and the preexisting condition if one loses a job and then has to move to another plan.These can be addressed without turning everything into socialized medicine. It would be the worst thing in the world for our standard of care and it would continue to send the message that one doesn't have to take care of one's own family.

In Sweden, the state provides just about everything and the taxes are around 80% and a few work and the rest coast, according to Swedes I have spoken with. There is little incentive among the young to struggle. It is not a word they are familar with. They are very self-absorbed going from one governement sponsored "learning" trip to another and doing a little skiing along the way.

We are a different society and I think it makes us innovative, energetic, and strong. We need to address the laggards and get them to become contributing members of society and not hangers-on. We need to get those who don't to become those who do and not change our society from one of self-sufficiency and individual effort to another socialist state.

Are you trying to tell us, that free health care along with job security, homes, a decent income aren't guaranteed in the Constitution? :faintthud

[chaz]

If you think there are problems now just wait until the government clerk decides if you really need the diagnostic test for liver inflammation! Save us![/FONT]



And this is somehow different from Aetna/BCBS/any other insurance company declining coverage after paying htem $14,000+ in premiums over the past few years?

Remember, we all pay for health insurance coverage for other people. Everytime you shop at Wal-Mart, you are subsidizing their employees care. Those of you on here that realize that "companies don't pay taxes, their customers do" will realize the same thing about health care costs.

Just look at GM $1,500+ of health care costs in every automobile sold.

[TamHill]

My insurance company charges me according to the plan and the cost of the premium is according to the coverage. I have never had them refuse a claim that is part of the plan. I have seen HMO's refuse the same though. Even my mom's Medicare limits things and gets involved in the number of times a test can be done, for example, rather the doctor determing it. Fortunately there is a supplemental that picks up on it. Is that the way the government plan will work. Pay a supplement as well?
As for Wal-Mart and other companies if the value of the goods is fair then I am losing nothing by paying for my purchase. What they do with it is up to them. If the cost is too out of line I have the option not to buy it.

[True Believer]

Again, if we didn't have a third-party pay system and everyone had to purchase their own out-of-pocket and use a health savings account, the insurance industry is greatly reduced, costs go down....

[countrygirl]

Folks, you don't want socialized medicine. Yes, medical care is expensive...I know that firsthand. My grandchild's surgeon charged $60,000 for one of his surgeries. I'm not complaining. He was worth every penny of it. And yes, the insurance paid. You need a Lear Jet along with 2 pilots and a medical crew to transport that baby to a hospital that can care for her properly? Yes, insurance will pay for that if necessary. Did you say that you needed that airplane in the morning? Yes, insurance can help you arrange that....If you don't have insurance, they might ask for payment up front or when you get off the plane. I have actually seen that happen. I have watched a new father call friends and family to put money in his checking account because he wrote a bad check for thousands of dollars to cover the cost of the plane. Do you want your family member to have a surgeon that has a 50% survival rate for a child with a life threatening problem or do you want a surgeon with a 98% survival rate for the same surgery? If you have medicaid, which the government supports, you would probably have to choose the surgeon with the 50% survival rate.
Today, I have a beautiful, smart, healthy grandchild because we do not have socialized medicine. She had hours to wait for the right treatment rather than months. Yes, it was costly because insurance did not cover everything. It was worth it though.
By the way, check your doctors and hospitals out carefully. Healthcare is a moneymaking venture like everything else. There are good doctors and good health care facilities along with the bad ones. At least with insurance rather than socialized medicine we can choose....

[onlyme]

Why does it have to be either/or? Black/white? Why can't there be a system that combines aspects of socialized medicine ( medical coverage for everyone, supported - not fully financed - by the government ) and "free-market healthcare" ( you may purchase additional coverage if you want/can). Everybody ought to be required to pay into a health plan according to his ability, sort of like a flat tax ( X% of you income goes towards health insurance ). Otherwise people choose to "save" the money they are supposed to invest in their health care and when push comes to shove, the rest of the taxpayers have to foot the bill again. I hear so many times " I am healthy, I don't need a doctor and if I ever do I'll pay cash". How naive.

[selmore]

Years ago, when today's retirees voluntarily signed up for active duty, they were promised FREE healthcare for life. It was one of the big incentives to recruit new soldiers. Not only was this promise broken ( there IS cost to the insured, it's called deductible/ point-of-service fee/cost share etc. ), but fees for retirees - and active duty soldiers - are constantly rising while benefits are being whittled away. Don't envy them their measly benefits. They have sacrificed for years for a pittance, considering the hours and hard work they put in.


The Civil War vets complained about the same thing. I think it was Harrison that started the modern day heath care and retirement for vets.