Hopped off the fence

[RGDoherty]

O.K. I am officially off the fence.

I was willing to listen to both sides, looked at the proposed area, the proposed budget, and asked my questions. I got a response but will not go into details.

I am against incorporation of the Oak Grove Community to a municipality and I will tell you why…….

One, Open and Honest. - The approach that was taken in making this happen has been less than transparent. If it is really such a good idea, it should be an easy sale to the people and this would have happened already. The questions I posted on here were answered in snail mail, and were not satisfactory to me. However, I was asked not to post the response I was given, and I will honor that request.

Two, Nostalgia is just that. - The reasons I hear most people speak of, the Schools, will likely not change back to the days that we went there no matter how much we romanticize about it. The City has no financial incentive to take the school into it’s boarders either.

Three, Financial Justification. – A new city will need more taxation. I am a firm believer in keeping most of my paycheck under MY control. None of the arguments I have heard for the City of Oak Grove justify the increased taxes in my opinion.

Four, more regulation. Most people that have lived in the Oak Grove Area, as I have, for better than 30 years, have been here for the reason of getting away from regulation. Those of us that want regulation for property value tend to live in neighborhoods with protective covenants.

Do I think Oak Grove would have been a great City????? Absolutely, but I am afraid that time has passed 15 to 20 years ago. The commercial areas, which generate the revenue required to run a city, are currently Hattiesburg, it’s time for us to face that fact and move along.

The fact of the matter is: Oak Grove has progressed. With that progression, change is evident in the old pastures and family farms becoming the newest neighborhoods. With the new neighborhoods, new people are in the area, and no matter how much the old timers want Oak Grove to be the way it was 20 years ago, Pandora’s Box has been opened. Getting things back the way they were would be like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube it was squeezed from.

Several posts in different thread have all asked the questions but all of the sounds we have got in response is silence. If this group is really determined to make this effort work, they need to tell people just WHY it is important, then be able to give realistic Data to back up what they are saying.

[Augustus McRae]

O.K. I am officially off the fence.

I was willing to listen to both sides, looked at the proposed area, the proposed budget, and asked my questions. I got a response but will not go into details.

I am against incorporation of the Oak Grove Community to a municipality and I will tell you why…….

One, Open and Honest. - The approach that was taken in making this happen has been less than transparent. If it is really such a good idea, it should be an easy sale to the people and this would have happened already. The questions I posted on here were answered in snail mail, and were not satisfactory to me. However, I was asked not to post the response I was given, and I will honor that request.

Two, Nostalgia is just that. - The reasons I hear most people speak of, the Schools, will likely not change back to the days that we went there no matter how much we romanticize about it. The City has no financial incentive to take the school into it’s boarders either.

Three, Financial Justification. – A new city will need more taxation. I am a firm believer in keeping most of my paycheck under MY control. None of the arguments I have heard for the City of Oak Grove justify the increased taxes in my opinion.

Four, more regulation. Most people that have lived in the Oak Grove Area, as I have, for better than 30 years, have been here for the reason of getting away from regulation. Those of us that want regulation for property value tend to live in neighborhoods with protective covenants.

Do I think Oak Grove would have been a great City????? Absolutely, but I am afraid that time has passed 15 to 20 years ago. The commercial areas, which generate the revenue required to run a city, are currently Hattiesburg, it’s time for us to face that fact and move along.

The fact of the matter is: Oak Grove has progressed. With that progression, change is evident in the old pastures and family farms becoming the newest neighborhoods. With the new neighborhoods, new people are in the area, and no matter how much the old timers want Oak Grove to be the way it was 20 years ago, Pandora’s Box has been opened. Getting things back the way they were would be like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube it was squeezed from.

Several posts in different thread have all asked the questions but all of the sounds we have got in response is silence. If this group is really determined to make this effort work, they need to tell people just WHY it is important, then be able to give realistic Data to back up what they are saying.


An OUTSTANDING post! I respect the opinions of all involved, I honestly do. Especially folks like Bella who are so nice about it. But I honestly do hope that someone, in response to your excellent thoughts, will respond to the "WHY" and not just give us an example of one road with potholes at the end of Oak Grove Road. I would honestly like to know WHY the proponents think it's important to have a City.

Thanks, RGD!

[Fish-Bait]

Why? Easy. Recognition. (on their behalf)

[Honey]

Look deeper folks. If I can find it, you can too. It's right there if front of your eyes and it has nothing to do with the way it was in the old days or cows and lockers or OGC. Look deeper. It's right there.

[RGDoherty]

Spell it out for me Honey. Speaking in riddles and phrases is what helped me hop off on the side I did.

[Augustus McRae]

Look deeper folks. If I can find it, you can too. It's right there if front of your eyes and it has nothing to do with the way it was in the old days or cows and lockers or OGC. Look deeper. It's right there.


You seem like a really nice, smart lady. But you confuse me. Why the "cryptic" messages? If it is so obvious - so "right there in front of your eyes.." as you say - WHY won't you come out and just tell us!

Honestly, I HAVE tried to "look deeper." The deeper and closer I look, the less reason I see for a need for a City of Oak Grove. But YOU may have reasons I have not thought about. So tell us, please....

[Fish-Bait]

I think hidden in her message is J.D, D.D.D, and K.F...

[RGDoherty]

Surely you aren't speaking of a Race issue Honey?????

[Augustus McRae]

I think hidden in her message is J.D, D.D.D, and K.F...


I choose not to be believe that!

[RGDoherty]

I can't believe that's it either Gus.

[58ford]

Eventually something has to happen. Hattiesburg's already scarfed up your tax base, so there's no reason they should annex the residential areas. I think it's put you Grovers in a really crappy position.

[Fish-Bait]

Whatcha' gonna' do when the Burg comes for you?

Bad Cities-Bad Cities (Whatch' gonna' do?)
Whatcha' gonna do when the Burg comes for you......?

[RGDoherty]

That's right Ford, the Tax base is gone, what they would get on residential taxes with homestead exemptions wouldn't offset, the disgruntled residents plaguing their council meetings demanding expensive services.

[RGDoherty]

I'm safe, we'd be more of an expenderature and headache for the city than we're worth in tax revenue FB.

[58ford]

So, what in your opinion is gonna happen to Oak Grove?
Aren't they eventually gonna want some sort of city services?
Can the county keep taking care of the grovers without jacking their taxes to disagreeable level?

[RGDoherty]

They have city services where Hattiesburg has annexed. I think those of us on the edges just want to be left alone. We didn't have city services when we chose to move out here, why would we change our minds now?

[Fish-Bait]

They have city services where Hattiesburg has annexed. I think those of us on the edges just want to be left alone. We didn't have city services when we chose to move out here, why would we change our minds now?
To keep from being called Hattiesburg?:kekeke:

[RGDoherty]

Call me Hattiesburg, doesn't bother me... I bet when people ask the staunchest of Oak Grove City proponents where they are from, they say Hattiesburg, because nobody has heard of Oak Grove that doesn't live in the area.

[Honey]

Because I'm sure you people have done your research and have come to your conclusions based on facts and not emotions or rumors.
Has nothing to do with race and shame on you for implying that. I never ever have been racist. Shame, shame. And I will never be. I have to answer to a higher being and God made all folks of all colors and each man should be judge on actions not color of skin. Let's put that issue aside please. I just think it is too late and it is fun to watch all the hard nosed, ain't-gonna-do-it-because-somebody-might-make-more -nickels-than-me-people realize what I think is gonna happen. I don't spell it out in the chance (I don't think so but hoping so) someone else hasn't figured it out! It has NOTHING to do with residential annexations and EVERYTHING to do with taxes.

I would now like to apoligize for my unlady like tone but this race thing had got to stop. It is wrong. It is a tax thing only.

[Augustus McRae]

So, what in your opinion is gonna happen to Oak Grove?
Aren't they eventually gonna want some sort of city services?
Can the county keep taking care of the grovers without jacking their taxes to disagreeable level?

That's a very good question! Truth is, I think we have excellent "services" as you indicated here in Oak Grove from Lamar County govenment. Fire protection thanks to a wonderful network of volunteer fire departments who should and do get excellent support from the County. Law enforcement services in this county are outstanding, in my opinion. My supervisor (can't speak for everyone's) is responsive to real needs in the area. Water/sewer services are adequate and keep up with infrastructure needs. Garbage gets picked up, streets and roads are maintained. What am I missing?

Taxes are a way of life. If you want services - from a city, county, or from such entity - it cost money. People would gripe about taxes if they were $ 10.00 or $ 10,000.00.

[RGDoherty]

O.K. Taxes for the City of Hattiesburg would be less than what would be required to START a new city.....if you don't believe me, just ask Petal Residences when they went through this.

[Augustus McRae]

Because I'm sure you people have done your research and have come to your conclusions based on facts and not emotions or rumors.
Has nothing to do with race and shame on you for implying that. I never ever have been racist. Shame, shame. And I will never be. I have to answer to a higher being and God made all folks of all colors and each man should be judge on actions not color of skin. Let's put that issue aside please. I just think it is too late and it is fun to watch all the hard nosed, ain't-gonna-do-it-because-somebody-might-make-more -nickels-than-me-people realize what I think is gonna happen. I don't spell it out in the chance (I don't think so but hoping so) someone else hasn't figured it out! It has NOTHING to do with residential annexations and EVERYTHING to do with taxes.

I would now like to apoligize for my unlady like tone but this race thing had got to stop. It is wrong. It is a tax thing only.


Never believed the race thing, so consider that "set aside." But I am REALLY confused by your last post. You say "..it is a tax thing only..." Do you mean, you think your taxes (and mine and others) are going to be LESS or NOT grow as much if we are in the City of Oak Grove instead of not?

[Honey]

I'm going to lunch. I think I am a little upset right now so before I behave any more unlady like I'll leave. I really hate you guys seen me this way but we all fall short sometimes and today must have been my day.

[Augustus McRae]

I'm going to lunch. I think I am a little upset right now so before I behave any more unlady like I'll leave. I really hate you guys seen me this way but we all fall short sometimes and today must have been my day.


I don't think you have done anything to be ashamed up, and you owe no apology. I am very sorry you are upset. No reason to be. If you want me to speak honestly: I think you are a genuinely good person and someone has convinced you of something. No harm or shame in that. I'd just like to know what YOU think.

Take care of you. Don't stay gone long.

[RGDoherty]

No Honey, I don't think you've said anything that was misbehaving. I didn't think it was a Race issue either, I just wanted you to clarify that for all to see. Please do go on and tell us what you think about the taxation issue.

[Fish-Bait]

I heard Petal wants to annex Oak Grove. They need the money. The new city-limits will be down EGP to I-59. It will go up through Eatonville Rd and North Forrest..(the roads only in this portion) It will then go across F-S Pre-stress's parking lot and up around the Northern and Eastern part of H'burg in an only 5 ft. wide section it will then go and gather all the stuff that people call Oak grove that the burg is yet to get. Hope ya'll will like your new mayor.

There, Now OG is gonna be Petal.:kekeke:

[RGDoherty]

Lol!

[Fish-Bait]

Oh yeah, I left out that your taxes will be the highest in the nation and you may want to take out a second mortgage to pay your water bill. If you are on fixed income you are prolly screwed if it isn't above 200,000 a year and if you have an ice house out there or a trailer it's time to get those junky pieces of crap moved outside of the new Petal city limits or you will go to jail. They are gonna give you 30 days to comply. Oh yeah, no more metal buildings. Also, if you have sewer services now in 10 years it will be backing up in your bathroom. And if you think traffic is bad now wait until you are called Petal. Also the new Petal football team will be classified as a 6A team and will win a state championship every year.

One more thing, prepare to loose more property rights.

[RGDoherty]

Time to move out to Ohlo sounds like!

[Fish-Bait]

Time to move out to Ohlo sounds like!

I thinkin' more like Montana.:smt023 Georgia would be nice too.

[CUPCAKE]

Perhaps those who support OGC have visions of becoming another Madison, MS.

[RGDoherty]

Wonder what the bass fishing is like in Montana???

[Fish-Bait]

Wonder what the bass fishing is like in Montana???

Go pure and target the brookies and rainbows.:smt023

[Bella]

Rob,

Did you ever talk to the planner? Her email was given to you. Did you ever speak to the OG City group about your questions? Did you ever attend any of the weekly meetings that were open to the public and that I believe you had a personal invitation too. I do not recall seeing you at any of the meetings or asking questions to the group. Sure, you have asked me questions and I have answered the best I could but I think for someone as on the fence as you have been that you would have invested more time in speaking to the people with more knowledge than myself.

Did you wait on a meeting with an OG City leader as planned or did you make your leap off the fence before asking the people who have invested time and money into this incorporation effort?

Do you how many businesses are in the proposed area or how many are coming? Or did you do your research by asking around? Did you spend hours at the courthouse researching Lamar County stats to make sure we couldn't support a city? Did you research annexations to know for sure that Hattiesburg can't take residental or that they don't need it?

This to me is sad. You are a home grown Oak Grover who I believe has a good heart. Instead of digging deeper into the real issues you make a decision before getting all the facts. In my opinion.

But, I will say that I'm glad you are off the fence and are at peace with your decision. I know that it was bothering you and I do believe you have a good heart and mean well.

[Fish-Bait]

Lucie.....you got some 'splainin' to dooo!!!!!!

[RGDoherty]

Rob,

Did you ever talk to the planner? Her email was given to you. Did you ever speak to the OG City group about your questions? Did you ever attend any of the weekly meetings that were open to the public and that I believe you had a personal invitation too. I do not recall seeing you at any of the meetings or asking questions to the group. Sure, you have asked me questions and I have answered the best I could but I think for someone as on the fence as you have been that you would have invested more time in speaking to the people with more knowledge than myself.

I did not speak with the planner or the Group, other than the written reply to my questions, which I have not published as requested. That does lead to the transparancy issue that I spoke of that worked up my decision. I have not attended any meetings, as the one I had the invitation to was scheduled for when I was at work.

Did you wait on a meeting with an OG City leader as planned or did you make your leap off the fence before asking the people who have invested time and money into this incorporation effort?

You know I did not wait on the meeting with a OG City leader. I lept off the fence actually from reading posts that were vague and ambiguous at best.

Do you how many businesses are in the proposed area or how many are coming? Or did you do your research by asking around? Did you spend hours at the courthouse researching Lamar County stats to make sure we couldn't support a city? Did you research annexations to know for sure that Hattiesburg can't take residental or that they don't need it?

I do know that retail businesses, ones that create real sales tax revenue have been taken in by Hattiesburg already. I looked at the map that was in the proposed boundries of Oak Grove City that was once posted on the website, before you had to log in, to see what areas would be incorporated and looked at the businesses that were in that area. I did not spend hours researching at the courthouse, now. I didn't research annexations, I just used deductive logic. More money in businesses, more expendatures in residences and assumed the annexations were about money.

This to me is sad. You are a home grown Oak Grover who I believe has a good heart. Instead of digging deeper into the real issues you make a decision before getting all the facts. In my opinion.

It has been asked by members of this very message board for us to be given the facts. Post them here. I was asked not to post the answers to my questions by the OGC group and I am respecting that. It is up to somebody from that group to answer the questions to get the facts out.

But, I will say that I'm glad you are off the fence and are at peace with your decision. I know that it was bothering you and I do believe you have a good heart and mean well.


I am glad I finally landed as well. I am Oak Grove all of my life. And do love the area. I hate to see what has occurred, but it has. I feel, and I could be wrong that Annexations will follow the businesses for the added Sales Tax Revenue, but leave neighborhoods where they will have to spend Millions to bring up to city code.

Thank you for your reply and for your answers over the past few weeks. Bella, you truely are a shining star in the OGC effort!

[Kitty]

What is the deadline for securing and validating petition signatures?

I know this has been discussed in "the other" City of Oak Grove thread, but I don't see how signatures obtained months ago or even a year ago can all still be valid.

People move in and out of the area all the time.

[politically incorrect]

RG, I think you made a very informed and wise decision. You stated your reasons very clearly, and they are valid. One only has to look at Petal as an example of how incorporating a city for the stated purpose of protecting a community from being annexed by Hattiesburg can become a burden on the residents it is supposed to be protecting.

And, again for the record, the school issue and the residential issue are both moot points. The school is protected by law, approved by the Justice Department and the U.S. Supreme Court. Hattiesburg can not control Oak Grove schools. The residential issue has been solved by Mayor DuPree and his associates. They want no part in annexing majority white residential areas into Hattiesburg. Their stated reason being the cost of maintaining residential areas. Their real reason being the voting patterns of those who live in said neighborhoods.

[Bella]

Open town hall meetings held. Weekly public meetings held with times listed in the paper. Door to door spent by numerous volunteers for the past year or longer. Lots of mail outs. Meetings at Canebrake, Bent Creek, Lake Serene and several churches. Tents set up weekly or twice weekly to give out info. Working the polls last November to get signatures and give out info.

You say we aren't open and willing to share info. I don't think you could be more wrong. We were very willing to meet one on one with you but instead, you chose to listen and look at what others were saying on this board. My point exactly. Don't trust the people who spent a year or longer researching this topic, paying experts to research questions and determine the best route to go to form a city. Don't trust a planner with a college degree and fourteen years exp. in the field and court cases under their belt. Go with what you see on this board.

We couldn't be more open and in the public.

[fuzzis]

Open town hall meetings held. Weekly public meetings held with times listed in the paper. Door to door spent by numerous volunteers for the past year or longer. Lots of mail outs. Meetings at Canebrake, Bent Creek, Lake Serene and several churches. Tents set up weekly or twice weekly to give out info. Working the polls last November to get signatures and give out info.

You say we aren't open and willing to share info. I don't think you could be more wrong. We were very willing to meet one on one with you but instead, you chose to listen and look at what others were saying on this board. My point exactly. Don't trust the people who spent a year or longer researching this topic, paying experts to research questions and determine the best route to go to form a city. Don't trust a planner with a college degree and fourteen years exp. in the field and court cases under their belt. Go with what you see on this board.

We couldn't be more open and in the public.

City of Oak Grove proponents don't do themselves very many favors when they get snarky and snippy. You didn't win a convert; move on without the bitterness.

[politically incorrect]

Don't trust a planner with a college degree and fourteen years exp. in the field and court cases under their belt.

I have two college degrees and 39 years experience in life. I can make decisions on issues like this by using my own judgment. I'm sure RG can, too.

[RGDoherty]

I hate you are upset that I reached this decision. The information that I think everyone would be interested in seeing, is what will not be spoken aloud. I answered each question you asked. No on a lot of my answers. All I ask is that the OGC personnel answer as forthcomingly as I did in public.

Kitty asked a question two posts above your response to me, but no answer was given, unless it was private.

Agustus has asked questions, and again, silence or artful dodges were the response.

I asked public questions and got an answer but have been asked not to publish.

That is what I mean by transparency, or lack thereof.

The truth of the matter was stated by someone in a different thread. I don't see how the most Conservative Republican Area of town is wanting more government (props to whoever asked that, by the way). This is your audience. They seek answers.

[amanda]

Uh..I don't see what the fuss is about. It seems that there have been a couple of attempts to pass on a City of Oak Grove to no avail. 'Nuff said. Apparently there weren't enough people in the area who agree that Oak Grove should be a City so maybe the small group who are trying to do so should just give up.

[jmb]

I hate you are upset that I reached this decision. The information that I think everyone would be interested in seeing, is what will not be spoken aloud. I answered each question you asked. No on a lot of my answers. All I ask is that the OGC personnel answer as forthcomingly as I did in public.

Kitty asked a question two posts above your response to me, but no answer was given, unless it was private.

Agustus has asked questions, and again, silence or artful dodges were the response.

I asked public questions and got an answer but have been asked not to publish.

That is what I mean by transparency, or lack thereof.

The truth of the matter was stated by someone in a different thread. I don't see how the most Conservative Republican Area of town is wanting more government (props to whoever asked that, by the way). This is your audience. They seek answers.

I see both the good and bad, but what I don't understand is why won't the people "in the know" answer the questions publicly? I have no dog in the fight but am interested to better understand the issues.

[Fish-Bait]

Dear Good people of Oak Grove. Please consider an outsiders point of view for a moment......


It will be much easier to bitch and moan about the H'burg admin.that you didn't elect than a new Oak Grove admin. that you would elect.

Sorry to break it to you like that, but facts are facts....

P.S. I hope this doesn't cause anyone any real world problems...

Fish-Bait esq.:-D

[Kitty]

I see both the good and bad, but what I don't understand is why won't the people "in the know" answer the questions publicly? I have no dog in the fight but am interested to better understand the issues.

I think most residents of Oak Grove want to know "why" a city is needed, and "what" is it the city proponents know that the rest of us don't know?

I, too, have a couple of college degrees and I've managed to retain my common sense. I consider myself capable of using my own judgment in making decisions.

And no, my question as to any "sunset" of the validity of the petition signatures has not been answered.

[threekidspa]

Open town hall meetings held. Weekly public meetings held with times listed in the paper. Door to door spent by numerous volunteers for the past year or longer. Lots of mail outs. Meetings at Canebrake, Bent Creek, Lake Serene and several churches. Tents set up weekly or twice weekly to give out info. Working the polls last November to get signatures and give out info.

You say we aren't open and willing to share info. I don't think you could be more wrong. We were very willing to meet one on one with you but instead, you chose to listen and look at what others were saying on this board. My point exactly. Don't trust the people who spent a year or longer researching this topic, paying experts to research questions and determine the best route to go to form a city. Don't trust a planner with a college degree and fourteen years exp. in the field and court cases under their belt. Go with what you see on this board.

We couldn't be more open and in the public.
This kinda reminds me of the turnip truck letter....

[RGDoherty]

I'm lost I keep hearing that reference "Turnip Truck". If it's been hashed over too much here, please PM what this refers to me.

[threekidspa]

I'm lost I keep hearing that reference "Turnip Truck". If it's been hashed over too much here, please PM what this refers to me.
just pm'd you. :)

[RGDoherty]

Thanks threekidspa, I don't take the paper so missed the comment.

[firefly]

Thanks threekidspa, I don't take the paper so missed the comment. Rg, I went to school with that Bozo who wrote the "turnip truck" letter!:smt118

[RGDoherty]

Wow, usually if I post something that is important, I write it, walk away read it again, make edits then post......For me to send something to the paper, that process may take days of re reads and re writes. The gaff made there was no way proof read.

[joseph8]

To all that care: There have been many comments about why have Oak Grove as a city . The people of Oak Grove let me know that I was not their leader of choice in our last election, but if you are willing to take this as just another persons thoughts I will tell you why I think being a city would have been great for Oak Grove.

Let me first say that this should have happened many years ago. There are a number of reason it did not, but I will name 2. Power and money determined our last loss.
There are many opportunities that come with being a city. Let me say that none of these happen without a cost to the residents of that city.
1.) Local post office
2.) There are many grants, subsidies and benifits that come to a city that are not
offered any other way.
3.) As a city we are able to have much more say in the future of where we live.
4.) Our insurance rates would in reality go done but would be offset by new taxes.
5.) In our case we would stop any chance of our schools and or residential from
being part of Hattiesburg. Most think that Hattiesburg doesn"t want the residents
and that they can't touch our schools, but remember the day and times we live
in. Time and power could change all of these. I do not hide the way I feel about
Hattiesburg. It is a great city that we should all be proud of. I love to shop there,
eat there and am not angry that a lot of my tax dollars go there. The one thing
I don't care for is the leadership. I have meet Mr. Dupree and I think in his
own rights he is a great man. Hattiesurg needs one man or woman as mayor not
2 or 3. Decisions on issues should be made quickly, fairly and to the benefit of the
residents. Many people think that many decisions are being made based on race.
They are and this should come to a halt. We have enough people out there
trying to destroy America and we should not be destroying ourselfs from within.
6.) With the propects of more and maybe even greater growth to the west, Oak
Grove would be one of the greatest cities in Mississippi.
There are many other issues here that I have not mentioned, not because they are not equally important but because the list is to long and this site should be brief as possible. THESE ARE A FEW OF THE REASONS TO HAVE A CITY. THE REASONS FOR NOT HAVING ONE ARE VERY SIMPLE, POWER AND MONEY. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE
" A DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT" FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.