Huckabee ticks off the Catholics?

[wilebill]

Huckabee angers some Catholics (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071223/pl_nm/usa_politics_huckabee_dc_1;_ylt=AgC0aPdbE_FVywINCT 29yy0E1vAI)

SAN ANTONIO (Reuters) - Rising Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee risked his standing with Catholic voters on Sunday by courting his evangelical base at the church of a controversial preacher accused of disparaging Catholics.

"Hagee has a history of denigrating the Catholic religion," said Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League, the largest Catholic civil rights group in the United States.

In his recent book "Jerusalem Countdown," Hagee wrote: "Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews."

In the same book, Hagee did applaud the late Pope John Paul II's efforts to reach out to Jews.

But Catholic bloggers on the Internet were mostly critical about Huckabee's visit. The Catholic News Agency ran the headline: "Mike Huckabee to speak at strongly anti-Catholic preacher's church."

One Catholic blogger said while Huckabee was an eloquent spokesman for the "culture of life" -- code for the anti-abortion cause -- his visit to "a church pastored by a raving anti-Catholic bigot" was deeply troubling.
I guess he thought that pandering to the evangelicals was more important than potentially pissing off the Catholics.

I don't really understand why religion has to play such an important role in politics, why some candidates feel that they have to align themselves with one denomination or another.

[Conveyor Belt]

Huckabee angers some Catholics (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071223/pl_nm/usa_politics_huckabee_dc_1;_ylt=AgC0aPdbE_FVywINCT 29yy0E1vAI)

I guess he thought that pandering to the evangelicals was more important than potentially pissing off the Catholics.

I don't really understand why religion has to play such an important role in politics, why some candidates feel that they have to align themselves with one denomination or another.

Some people find the religious choice of the candidate the most important factor. I'm really to tired to post about this coherently right now... ****, I just spelled coherently right without spell check. praise jesus.

[dollfus46]

Some people find the religious choice of the candidate the most important factor. I'm really to tired to post about this coherently right now... ****, I just spelled coherently right without spell check. praise jesus.

Uh, that would be Jesus Alou, Jesus Hernandez or Jesus Mendoza?:smt118 Would someone please explain to me what Christians have against Catholics? I never understood that. Dad couln't join the Masons because he was Catholic. Had to join Knights of Columbus. What's with that chit?

[onlyme]

Uh, that would be Jesus Alou, Jesus Hernandez or Jesus Mendoza?:smt118 Would someone please explain to me what Christians have against Catholics? I never understood that. Dad couln't join the Masons because he was Catholic. Had to join Knights of Columbus. What's with that chit?

It goes both ways. My father-in-law had an initial hissy fit when he heard that his son was going to marry a non-catholic ( after son had dated the heathen for 4 years nobody saw THAT coming.... ) and that said non-catholic refused to convert. Said hissy fit turned into an almost heart attack when the first grandchild was born and the decision was made to have it christened in a Lutheran church. He did not attend the christening and actually wrote to the Pope to have our marriage annulled :kekeke:. It's all good now though - I think :-D.
Most wars and conflicts ensue because of religion. Everyone seems to think that their way is the only way and "non-believers" ought to be forced to see the light :smt105

[Waldo]

That doesn't make any sense to me? Why would a man do that to his family?

[Engelbert Humperdinck]

Dad couln't join the Masons because he was Catholic. Had to join Knights of Columbus. What's with that chit?

Not to steal the thread, but there's nothing prohibiting a Catholic from becoming a Mason. There have been some lodges, and even a few grand lodges that might have kept them out, but it was an unwritten local thing. The only Masonic faith requirement is that you believe in a supreme being.

Back on topic.

[dollfus46]

It goes both ways. My father-in-law had an initial hissy fit when he heard that his son was going to marry a non-catholic ( after son had dated the heathen for 4 years nobody saw THAT coming.... ) and that said non-catholic refused to convert. Said hissy fit turned into an almost heart attack when the first grandchild was born and the decision was made to have it christened in a Lutheran church. He did not attend the christening and actually wrote to the Pope to have our marriage annulled :kekeke:. It's all good now though - I think :-D.
Most wars and conflicts ensue because of religion. Everyone seems to think that their way is the only way and "non-believers" ought to be forced to see the light :smt105
Yeah, Catholics, Orthodox Catholics are strict. You must be married in the Catholic church and promise to raise your children as Catholic or they will be illegitimate as far as the Pope is concerned. Dad was Catholic but he and Mom were married at my aunt's house. They later had to go be married in the Catholic church. So they were married twice. Right there at Sacred Heart in Hattiesburg.

[CircusRide]

More and more I find myself being turned off by the religion and politics overlap. It's just getting to be too much.
But, it's been going on since the beginning of the country, so I don't see it changing.

[virgo]

Who hasn't Huckabee pissed off recently?

[Waldo]

I don't think the vatican has any room to talk. Last time I checked it took them around 400 years to admit Galileo was right about the Earth revolving around the Sun. That was in 1992. So I guess in 2370 they'll admit they were wrong in moving Priests around that molested children. did i say that out loud??

[ruckus]

Would someone please explain to me what Christians have against Catholics? I never understood that.

I don't think it's against catholics as individuals, but against the catholic church and catholic practice. So much of it flies in the face of biblical teaching, the whole concept of a pope, the fact that the church is seen as more of a corporation than any sort of spiritual support group, etc.

The child molesters that get transfered rather than prosecuted will always be a sticking point until something is done about it. When you find out a priest is diddling little boys, it's time to accept that "god's will" ain't exactly his driving motivation.

[Engelbert Humperdinck]

I don't think it's against catholics as individuals, but against the catholic church and catholic practice. So much of it flies in the face of biblical teaching, the whole concept of a pope, the fact that the church is seen as more of a corporation than any sort of spiritual support group, etc.

The child molesters that get transfered rather than prosecuted will always be a sticking point until something is done about it. When you find out a priest is diddling little boys, it's time to accept that "god's will" ain't exactly his driving motivation.

I've tried to stay out of this, but I just can't. If any of you'd actually read into what is preached and is practiced by the Church, you'd be amazed that what you've believed to be the truth isn't. How many of you Protestants believe we worship Mary? Not true, we don't. How many of you believe we HAVE to confess our sins to a priest to be forgiven? Not true, we don't. I'm quite sure that the Protestant faith has had just as many child molesters as the Catholic Church, but just because a Baptist, or a Methodist has a problem, and not a huge spotlight on it, it's ok.

This is the season for the celebration of the birth of OUR Lord and Savior, can we put aside these difference just for this week, then we can argue to your hearts content?

[daisy]

I've tried to stay out of this, but I just can't. If any of you'd actually read into what is preached and is practiced by the Church, you'd be amazed that what you've believed to be the truth isn't. How many of you Protestants believe we worship Mary? Not true, we don't. How many of you believe we HAVE to confess our sins to a priest to be forgiven? Not true, we don't. I'm quite sure that the Protestant faith has had just as many child molesters as the Catholic Church, but just because a Baptist, or a Methodist has a problem, and not a huge spotlight on it, it's ok.

This is the season for the celebration of the birth of OUR Lord and Savior, can we put aside these difference just for this week, then we can argue to your hearts content?


Amen to that. Iwas at a Catholic Mass here and I know the Bishop here is taking the above molestations mentioned seriously and I know many Catholics that were very grieved and enbarassed by all that went on. the Bishop outlined classes, info and background checks are being done on all workers and volunteers now. I was impresses. Sins and crimes against others can be done in any organization--religous or other.

I second The above that we are celebrate the birth of Christ and enjoy what we have--families and other blessings.

There are many good, decent Godly people in the Catholic church and other faiths as well.

Merry Christmas to all and wasn't this thread about Huckabee. I am off too.

Getting ready to head to Prentiss. Hope I don't arrive after Santa and his reindeer.:smt023

[firefly]

Uh, that would be Jesus Alou, Jesus Hernandez or Jesus Mendoza?:smt118 Would someone please explain to me what Christians have against Catholics? I never understood that. Dad couln't join the Masons because he was Catholic. Had to join Knights of Columbus. What's with that chit? Dollfus, I am a member of the Order of the Eastern Star. My Daddy was in the Masons for over 50 years. I have never heard of anyone being turned away from the Masonic Fraternity or the OES because of being Catholic. This is news to me. I am a Baptist, but if I were not raised a Baptist, I would choose to be Catholic. I have many Catholic friends. What reason did they give your Father for turning him away from the Masons???:smt086

[Waldo]

It's not that Freemasons can't be Catholic. It's that Catholics can't be Freemasons, or Order of the Eastern Star, or Order of DeMolay, etc. -The old Code of Canon Law (1917) imposed excommunication upon Catholics who became masons. Recent Vatican directives under Pope John Paul II have reaffirmed the long-standing ban. -

Pope of John Paul II said this "the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church, and therefore membership with them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion." Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Masonic Associations (November 26, 1983). Cf: Canon Law Digest, vol. 10, p. 285; Acta Apostolicae Sedis (AAS), 76-300.


Well that's pretty cut and dry to me. Don't do what the "church" wants you to do and you are excommunicated, in a state of "grave" sin, and can't receive communion. They might as well say that you will burn in hell forever and go ahead and put you up on a stake and burn you.

[Waldo]

That being said I want to add that Catholics are not to blame nor their faith. It's their "leaders" that might be a little misguided. In my opinion.

[ruckus]

I'm going to risk mass amounts of neg rep and groaning here. But, keep in mind, I'm in no way attempting to defame or slam any belief. I'm merely comparing catholicism to the way most christians interpret the bible.
I've tried to stay out of this, but I just can't. If any of you'd actually read into what is preached and is practiced by the Church, you'd be amazed that what you've believed to be the truth isn't.

All due respect, but reading what is supposed to be done and seeing what is done...quite often not the same thing. That goes for all religions, political groups, treaties, etc, etc.

How many of you Protestants believe we worship Mary? Not true, we don't.

Worship? No. But there appears to be some serious idolatry when it comes to her.

"Hail Mary!"

"Holy Mary, mother of god."

No offense, but I don't see Jesus mentioned anywhere.

The bible I read says that "None are righteous. No, not one." Yet, it seems as though the catholic church disagrees. The way they put a common mortal woman on a pedestal looks, to these humble eyes, very much like idol worship and an attempt to place Mary on Jesus' level, when nothing in the bible supports this. According to the bible I read, referring to Mary as "holy" is blasphemy.

Same can be said of the pope. Common, mortal man, but referred to as "his holiness". I don't recall any verse that supports the notion that a mortal man can be holy. In fact, the bible seems to state quite the opposite.

The bible also says to "call no man your father". Yet, that's exactly the title given to catholic priests.

How many of you believe we HAVE to confess our sins to a priest to be forgiven? Not true, we don't.

Never thought that. In theory, it seems like a good idea. We all need someone we can talk to about stuff. I have to be honest, though. It seems like a real breeding ground for perversion and voyeurism. You can only listen to Mrs. Anderson's adultery confession for just so long before nature comes into play. I don't know how detailed confessions typically are, but...

Also, is it not common...rightly or wrongly...for someone to ask their priest for forgiveness?

And does the priest in the confessional really instruct people to say "10 Hail Maries" and the like as penance? I've never understood what that was supposed to accomplish.

I'm quite sure that the Protestant faith has had just as many child molesters as the Catholic Church, but just because a Baptist, or a Methodist has a problem, and not a huge spotlight on it, it's ok.

Actually, I believe there's no particular faith that pedophiles prefer. But it does appear that certain faiths produce more pedophiles.

Protestant preachers have a tendency to like Mrs. Smith.
Catholic priests seem to prefer Mr. & Mrs. Smith's little boy, Johnny.

Not judging. Just pointing out the differences I see. Of the two, though, I'd feel much more comfortable with a whore monger at the pulpit than a pedophile.

But that's neither here nor there. What I want to know is why does the church protect the pedophiles? Even worse, why do they transfer them to other parts of the world, knowing full well what this person is going to do?

This is the season for the celebration of the birth of OUR Lord and Savior, can we put aside these difference just for this week, then we can argue to your hearts content?

Everything is closed today. I got nuthin' better to do. And I'm not arguing or looking to argue. I've never had anyone capable of answering these questions without getting defensive or just making an ass of themselves. These are things I'm genuinely curious about.

[onlyme]

I don't think it's against catholics as individuals, but against the catholic church and catholic practice. So much of it flies in the face of biblical teaching, the whole concept of a pope, the fact that the church is seen as more of a corporation than any sort of spiritual support group, etc.

The child molesters that get transfered rather than prosecuted will always be a sticking point until something is done about it. When you find out a priest is diddling little boys, it's time to accept that "god's will" ain't exactly his driving motivation.

I am not catholic and I certainly have locked horns with the Catholic church and some priests in the past but all in all the Catholic church is not better or worse as any other church be that Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc. All major institutions are driven by politics but that does not mean that every church ( make that congregation ) of that denomination is corrupt and full of lies. I will never convert to catholicism but I do attend catholic mass here in Hattiesburg and enjoy it not least because of Father Tommy. In every large group there are good and bad people but you should not make broad statements because of those bad apples. Merry Christmas to all ;)

[ruckus]

I am not catholic and I certainly have locked horns with the Catholic church and some priests in the past but all in all the Catholic church is not better or worse as any other church be that Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc. All major institutions are driven by politics but that does not mean that every church ( make that congregation ) of that denomination is corrupt and full of lies. I will never convert to catholicism but I do attend catholic mass here in Hattiesburg and enjoy it not least because of Father Tommy. In every large group there are good and bad people but you should not make broad statements because of those bad apples. Merry Christmas to all ;)

I made a broad statement?

[fuzzis]

I've never quite understood why it matters to "Christians" how other "Christians" choose to get to the same place. Y'all are saved and wind up in heaven if you believe that Jesus is your Savior and died for your sins. Right?

As long as another "Christian" believes that Jesus is his savior and died for the sins of mankind, why do people feel the need to get caught up in the details? Unless you're trying to make yourself feel like you're a "better" "Christian".

:confused:

[Hermione]

"Hail Mary!"

"Holy Mary, mother of god."

No offense, but I don't see Jesus mentioned anywhere.




Since I'm a Protestant, I'll take this one on. The first part of the "Hail Mary" is the Angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary.
The prayer itself says, "Hail Mary, full of grace. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." While I don't use this prayer myself, I don't take the issue with it that so many Protestants do. I had a pastor once who commented that "the trouble with Mary is that Catholics give her too much attention, and Protestants not enough." I like the Eastern Orthodox approach to her as the Theotokos, the "God-bearer."

As for Confession, you might be interested to know that both the Anglican/Episcopal churches and the Lutheran churches provide for private confession and the pronouncement of absolution.

[ruckus]

I've never quite understood why it matters to "Christians" how other "Christians" choose to get to the same place. Y'all are saved and wind up in heaven if you believe that Jesus is your Savior and died for your sins. Right?

Lil more to it than just that, I think...unless you believe Hitler made it in, or that pedophile priests somehow get a pass.

As long as another "Christian" believes that Jesus is his savior and died for the sins of mankind, why do people feel the need to get caught up in the details? Unless you're trying to make yourself feel like you're a "better" "Christian".

Ever hear the expression "The devil is in the details?"

If true christianity was just about believing, there'd really be no issue at all. But believing something doesn't make you a christian. It lays the foundation, but building the house takes a lot more.

I can vow to be faithful to a woman, sign the contract, and genuinely love her. None of that really matters if I'm still screwing her sister, though.

[fuzzis]

Lil more to it than just that, I think...unless you believe Hitler made it in, or that pedophile priests somehow get a pass.



If they repent, I believe that Christianity says they do in fact get in. Isn't that why Christ died on the cross? Whether you like it or not? I don't remember the Bible saying that only some sins can be forgiven by accepting Christ as your personal savior.


Ever hear the expression "The devil is in the details?"

If true christianity was just about believing, there'd really be no issue at all. But believing something doesn't make you a christian. It lays the foundation, but building the house takes a lot more.

I can vow to be faithful to a woman, sign the contract, and genuinely love her. None of that really matters if I'm still screwing her sister, though.

I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't have the corner on "just believing" without "building the house". Hypocrites walk in all denominations, and your personal relationship with Christ is supposed to be more important to you than how another person chooses to worship and honor god. Or at least that's what I was taught.

[ruckus]

I had a pastor once who commented that "the trouble with Mary is that Catholics give her too much attention, and Protestants not enough."

Why should protestants pay her any attention at all? She's no more relevant than Joseph, is she? She doesn't have anything to do with the religion the developed from her son's teachings.

As for Confession, you might be interested to know that both the Anglican/Episcopal churches and the Lutheran churches provide for private confession and the pronouncement of absolution.

But who are they to pronounce absolution? They're just mortal men. They don't get a vote, unless god decided to give democracy a try and no one told me about it.

Again, I don't mean to come across as a prick or a hater. I just have a hard time making sense of non-christian practice in supposedly christian religions.

[ruckus]

If they repent, I believe that Christianity says they do in fact get in. Isn't that why Christ died on the cross?

Isn't that already more than just believing?

I know a lot of people who say they believe, but to my understanding of the scripture, if they died tonight, they'd be sitting on a brimstone lawn chair right next to me Anton LaVey. Asking for forgiveness while you're "walking towards the light" doesn't fly, or at least, that's my understanding.
I'm pretty sure that Catholics don't have the corner on "just believing" without "building the house". Hypocrites walk in all denominations

And I've said nothing to the contrary. But since this thread is about catholics...

and your personal relationship with Christ is supposed to be more important to you than how another person chooses to worship and honor god. Or at least that's what I was taught.

I don't see why that should prevent anyone from asking questions. All ye who seek knowledge, and all that jazz.

[Hermione]

But who are they to pronounce absolution?

The operative word is "pronounce" -- think about the marriage ceremony, when an officiant "pronounces" that a couple is married. The officiant speaks what is a higher reality, he isn't the source of that reality.

Beyond this, frankly I'm not a theologian and am about out of my depth. There are many resources available on the web if you have a sincere interest in any of these topics. Fuzzis is correct that many of the concerns with which we get ourselves all wound around, ultimately don't matter.

[wilebill]

And I've said nothing to the contrary. But since this thread is about catholics...
Actually, the thread originated with the question more or less being asked if Huckabee had alienated the Catholics by rubbing elbows with a Protestant preacher that many Catholics feel is hateful toward them.

Then it turned into Catholic bashing.

[ruckus]

The operative word is "pronounce" -- think about the marriage ceremony, when an officiant "pronounces" that a couple is married. The officiant speaks what is a higher reality, he isn't the source of that reality.
Makes sense, to a degree. But pronouncing someone man & wife and declaring that they've been forgiven seem to be on two completely different levels. Kinda gets into assuming a plea for forgiveness is sincere, etc. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

Beyond this, frankly I'm not a theologian and am about out of my depth. There are many resources available on the web if you have a sincere interest in any of these topics. Fuzzis is correct that many of the concerns with which we get ourselves all wound around, ultimately don't matter.

I actually think it's the details that define something. If a religion is built around practice that defies the instructions of the bible, I think that's a pretty crucial detail. But, again, that's just me. Ignoring the details may be the easy way some people choose to go about their routines. But it seems hollow to me.

[ruckus]

Actually, the thread originated with the question more or less being asked if Huckabee had alienated the Catholics by rubbing elbows with a Protestant preacher that many Catholics feel is hateful toward them.

Then it turned into Catholic bashing.

Who's bashing?

[Hermione]

Makes sense, to a degree. But pronouncing someone man & wife and declaring that they've been forgiven seem to be on two completely different levels. Kinda gets into assuming a plea for forgiveness is sincere, etc. Anyway, that's just my opinion.



I actually think it's the details that define something. If a religion is built around practice that defies the instructions of the bible, I think that's a pretty crucial detail. But, again, that's just me. Ignoring the details may be the easy way some people choose to go about their routines. But it seems hollow to me.

Of course there's an assumption the plea for forgiveness is genuine. Otherwise the whole exercise is invalid. To continue the marriage example, if one party has not been honest (if there is a prior marriage or some other impediment) then that pronouncement is likewise invalid. I used the marriage example not to make an equivalency between the two ceremonies, but to demonstrate the concept of "pronouncement" -- you asked who the clergymen was to pronounce absolution, and I was making the distinction between declaring and causing, which you seem to have missed, or misunderstood.

I wonder what your agenda is here, ruckus. I don't think you're a wide-eyed innocent questioner at all. This is at least the second instance where you criticize other people's religious practices in terms of biblical "instructions" -- a non-Christian would not work from such a stance. Yet you are stating that certain things are or are not correct, or biblical. If you aren't a Christian, why do you care? If you are, then what you're doing is deceptive.

Oh, and if you're truly a new poster, you need to know that we've had these religious discussions repeatedly on this board. Nothing ever gets resolved, and no one's mind is ever changed. I've tried, of late, to avoid them, and I'm sorry I let myself get drawn into this one.

[dollfus46]

Of course there's an assumption the plea for forgiveness is genuine. Otherwise the whole exercise is invalid. To continue the marriage example, if one party has not been honest (if there is a prior marriage or some other impediment) then that pronouncement is likewise invalid. I used the marriage example not to make an equivalency between the two ceremonies, but to demonstrate the concept of "pronouncement" -- you asked who the clergymen was to pronounce absolution, and I was making the distinction between declaring and causing, which you seem to have missed, or misunderstood.

I wonder what your agenda is here, ruckus. I don't think you're a wide-eyed innocent questioner at all. This is at least the second instance where you criticize other people's religious practices in terms of biblical "instructions" -- a non-Christian would not work from such a stance. Yet you are stating that certain things are or are not correct, or biblical. If you aren't a Christian, why do you care? If you are, then what you're doing is deceptive.

Oh, and if you're truly a new poster, you need to know that we've had these religious discussions repeatedly on this board. Nothing ever gets resolved, and no one's mind is ever changed. I've tried, of late, to avoid them, and I'm sorry I let myself get drawn into this one.
I'd bet my Confederate nickel we know him under another name. The style is the same

[dreamhippy]

Most Protestants have no idea why their religion of choice is called "Protestant". Likewise, most Catholics take a great deal for granted, without looking into things on a deeper level. ALL religions have their fair share of hypocrites. Don`t forget, Judas was in the inner circle.

[ruckus]

I'd bet my Confederate nickel we know him under another name. The style is the same

Two other names, actually.

[ruckus]

Not those two, but I was pondering something like Rick James for my next account.

[Conveyor Belt]

did you take your lithium today?

[Conveyor Belt]

You guys make me laugh!