12 year old accused of killing toddler

[wilebill]

Fla. boy, 12, accused of killing toddler (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080107/ap_on_re_us/infant_killed;_ylt=At6V66WrAh_0MGvtVkXhRFZvzwcF)

LAUDERHILL, Fla. - Prosecutors are reviewing whether a 12-year-old boy should be charged as an adult after police accused him of fatally beating his toddler cousin with a baseball bat for interrupting a cartoon show.

The boy, whose name was not released, was being held in juvenile custody in the death of 17-month-old Shaloh Joseph, who police said enraged the suspect by crying while he watched television.

The case has powerful similarities to that of Lionel Tate, another 12-year-old, whose killing of a playmate convulsed the legal system in the same county and set off a debate over Florida's tough juvenile laws.

What the hell is in the water down there?

[Conveyor Belt]

I'd kill a kid that did that to my kid.

A 12 year old is old enough to know that killing is wrong.

[firefly]

He should be tried as an adult!

[mybabysmomma]

There is something seriously wrong with our world. This is just beyond heartbreaking. Everytime I read something like this I feel the need to 1) beat the crap out of the person that hurt a child and 2) go give my son a hug and hold him. I cannot imagine what these families are going through. I don't want to know.

[fuzzis]

Twelve years old is a CHILD. Trying a CHILD as an adult is wrong.

[countrygirl]

I agree that 12 years old is a child, but what do you do with a 12 years old like that? I don't think putting him in juvenile hall will help.....

[Dixie Tree Slayer]

From the articleThe attack happened Friday afternoon, police said, when the suspect was left in charge of his second cousin at the cousin's home. The boy was watching a cartoon — detectives aren't sure which one — when the baby started crying.Who is the real criminal? the 12 year old or the parents? 12 is way too young to leave in charge of baby sitting... Even if a 12 year old seems mature enough... A 12 year old needs a sitter in my opinion.... This is a real tragedy from all angles... This child was set up for failure from the start...

[fuzzis]

I agree that 12 years old is a child, but what do you do with a 12 years old like that? I don't think putting him in juvenile hall will help.....

Juvenile hall isn't the right place for him, no, but that doesn't make trying him as an adult, when he clearly is not an adult the right answer either. We have a lot of resources in this country. I'm not sure why we decide that killing gnats with hammers is the best course of action.

I find it interesting that we think it's OK to try children as adults because they know right from wrong, but it's not OK for our children to drink. Or do drugs. Or have sex. Because they're not ready to make those kinds of decisions.

[Dixie Tree Slayer]

Think about it would you If you had a 17 month old would you leave him/her with a 12 year old and a 10 year old???? The criminals are not the children... They were placed in a bad situation... What should be done? I don't know... Should the parents be charged with neglect? Didn't we have a thread about a mother leaving a couple children for a new years party? And the house burned down? IIRC the child was somewhere around 12... We wanted to kill the mother... Talk about how she was neglectful... I can't find the post maybe someone can ind it but the 30 second rule is killing me right now...

[dyates]

I'm not sure why we decide that killing gnats with hammers is the best course of action.

Any human being, child or not that can beat a toddler to death with a baseball bat...well I'm not so damn sure we're dealing with a "gnat" here if you know what I mean.

[onlyme]

Think about it would you If you had a 17 month old would you leave him/her with a 12 year old and a 10 year old???? The criminals are not the children... They were placed in a bad situation... What should be done? I don't know... Should the parents be charged with neglect? Didn't we have a thread about a mother leaving a couple children for a new years party? And the house burned down? IIRC the child was somewhere around 12... We wanted to kill the mother... Talk about how she was neglectful... I can't find the post maybe someone can ind it but the 30 second rule is killing me right now...

When my children were 6 months and 5 years I had no worries about leaving them with our 13-year-old neighbor. She came from a big family - had 5 younger siblings - was a wonderful, smart girl and was capable of doing first aid and CPR if needed. Of course it helped that her mother was always next door in case something really terrible would have happened. Our oldest completed the Red Cross babysitter course and CPR training before he became a babysitter at age 12 and he has been in high demand since. It all depends on the child. Some 12-year-olds are perfectly capable of looking after smaller children while some 18-year-olds can't be trusted at all. I do, however, think that a 12 year old can never by tried as an adult, no matter what he/she has done.

[Conveyor Belt]

Juvenile hall isn't the right place for him, no, but that doesn't make trying him as an adult, when he clearly is not an adult the right answer either. We have a lot of resources in this country. I'm not sure why we decide that killing gnats with hammers is the best course of action.

I find it interesting that we think it's OK to try children as adults because they know right from wrong, but it's not OK for our children to drink. Or do drugs. Or have sex. Because they're not ready to make those kinds of decisions.

*cough* I know you're not talking about me, so I'm gonna let that one go a bit.

We're going to disagree, but when a 12 year old murders a kid with a baseball bat, that kid knew what he was doing and what was going to happen. At 12 is old enough to know and old enough to be tried as an adult.

If he didn't mean to do it, it's 2nd degree, or maybe manslaughter. The kid will be out of the system by the time he's 22-32.

No matter what happens, this kid is never gonna 'be right'. I'd find it hard to believe this kid could ever be a productive member of society.

[58ford]

Try the parents.

[fuzzis]

*cough* I know you're not talking about me, so I'm gonna let that one go a bit.

We're going to disagree, but when a 12 year old murders a kid with a baseball bat, that kid knew what he was doing and what was going to happen. At 12 is old enough to know and old enough to be tried as an adult.

If he didn't mean to do it, it's 2nd degree, or maybe manslaughter. The kid will be out of the system by the time he's 22-32.

No matter what happens, this kid is never gonna 'be right'. I'd find it hard to believe this kid could ever be a productive member of society.

Twelve years old is not old enough to be tried as an adult. Children are not adults. Physically, psychologically, emotionally, children are NOT adults. The justice system has no business trying to deal with them as if they are adults simply because we're horrified by the crime, which is not to say that they don't need some extraordinary help in the juvenile system.

[Conveyor Belt]

Twelve years old is not old enough to be tried as an adult. Children are not adults. Physically, psychologically, emotionally, children are NOT adults. The justice system has no business trying to deal with them as if they are adults simply because we're horrified by the crime, which is not to say that they don't need some extraordinary help in the juvenile system.

I think if you commit an 'adult' crime, you do adult time. JMO.

If it was a victimless crime, I would tend to agree with you. But crimes involving people, and lives, I'm going to disagree.

[fuzzis]

I think if you commit an 'adult' crime, you do adult time. JMO.

If it was a victimless crime, I would tend to agree with you. But crimes involving people, and lives, I'm going to disagree.

Most people do...and I'm used to it.

Where does the line get drawn? Twelve years old qualifies for adult. What about ten? The cases where nine year olds have been tried as adults?

Kids do "adult" crimes all the time. I'm not really sure that line of reasoning holds up. If it does, there a bunch of "adults" who need to be in prison, and given the percentage of our population that already occupies space in such facilities, if that's the path we want to go down, we better get ready for a surge in building because we're going to need more room.

[hendrixfreak70]

Juvenile hall isn't the right place for him, no, but that doesn't make trying him as an adult, when he clearly is not an adult the right answer either. We have a lot of resources in this country. I'm not sure why we decide that killing gnats with hammers is the best course of action.

I find it interesting that we think it's OK to try children as adults because they know right from wrong, but it's not OK for our children to drink. Or do drugs. Or have sex. Because they're not ready to make those kinds of decisions.


Let him go, I am sure he learned his lesson. :smt086

[Conveyor Belt]

Most people do...and I'm used to it.

Where does the line get drawn? Twelve years old qualifies for adult. What about ten? The cases where nine year olds have been tried as adults?

Kids do "adult" crimes all the time. I'm not really sure that line of reasoning holds up. If it does, there a bunch of "adults" who need to be in prison, and given the percentage of our population that already occupies space in such facilities, if that's the path we want to go down, we better get ready for a surge in building because we're going to need more room.

You know you're asking the wrong person that question.

My 5 year old knows the difference between life and death. He knows not to kill things just because he can. Not all parents are so good at placing that idea in their kids heads. However, by the age of 9 or 10, kids should be able to know what to do and not to do to one another. Maybe even 7-8 year olds.

Maybe it should be taken on a case by case basis.

[Bahlk]

I'm not sure where I am on this issue? If we could be assured he would get the help he needed in juvenile hall, then maybe that should be an option. But everybody knows that wont happen until the juvenile justice system undergoes a major overhaul.

[fuzzis]

You know you're asking the wrong person that question.

My 5 year old knows the difference between life and death. He knows not to kill things just because he can. Not all parents are so good at placing that idea in their kids heads. However, by the age of 9 or 10, kids should be able to know what to do and not to do to one another. Maybe even 7-8 year olds.

Maybe it should be taken on a case by case basis.

It's not just about knowing right from wrong, though. It's about what is appropriate for the CHILD. We're talking about children. We don't treat children like adults in other areas of life for a reason. It floors me that due to the circumstances of a crime, we decide that it's OK to toss everything we know about CHILDREN out the window.

[LipsofanAngel]

I'm not sure where I am on this issue? If we could be assured he would get the help he needed in juvenile hall, then maybe that should be an option. But everybody knows that wont happen until the juvenile justice system undergoes a major overhaul.
I think this is true about the majority of "correctional facilities"... the word correctional is a joke. I've said for years, you HAVE to provide some sort of intensive rehabilitation services if you expect these people to be productive citizens once their time is served.

[Conveyor Belt]

It's not just about knowing right from wrong, though. It's about what is appropriate for the CHILD. We're talking about children. We don't treat children like adults in other areas of life for a reason. It floors me that due to the circumstances of a crime, we decide that it's OK to toss everything we know about CHILDREN out the window.

What we disagree on is that I believe when a child does something like this, they cease being a child in my eyes. They've crossed a line into the adult world and need to face the consequences on adult terms. In no way, am I saying that the 12 year old should be tossed in prison with adults, but needs to lose all his freedom, just as an adult would.

That's just how I see it...

[mybabysmomma]

If he shouldn't be tried as an adult, and we all know that juvie is probably not a good idea, what should his punishment be then? He brutally attacked a small child and beat him/her to death with a bat. What is the answer? How do you punish someone this young that commits a crime this awful?

[hendrixfreak70]

Adults sometimes make irrational decisions (quite often actually) Should we then use the '12 year old" mentality for their defenses? Point is the 'kid' knew he was wrong. However the case is decided the fact remains the kid knew better.

[endofthetrail]

Aw shucks,just take away his cartoons.:(:(

[fuzzis]

What we disagree on is that I believe when a child does something like this, they cease being a child in my eyes. They've crossed a line into the adult world and need to face the consequences on adult terms. In no way, am I saying that the 12 year old should be tossed in prison with adults, but needs to lose all his freedom, just as an adult would.

That's just how I see it...

In most places, juveniles can be incarcerated until they are 21. And if they are dealt with in the juvenile justice system, they do lose all their freedoms.

We have two systems for a reason...because children are fundamentally different from adults.

If he shouldn't be tried as an adult, and we all know that juvie is probably not a good idea, what should his punishment be then? He brutally attacked a small child and beat him/her to death with a bat. What is the answer? How do you punish someone this young that commits a crime this awful?

The juvenile system certainly needs to be reformed, and in some places that is happening. As Lips said, there needs to be some intensive rehabilitation because this child will be rejoining society. With prison over-crowding and the likelihood of a plea deal, this child will be back in society. At least in the juvenile system, which is supposed to be geared towards rehabilitation, there's a shot that this child can be something different than what he's done.

[LipsofanAngel]

I also believe in parents being held accountable... this will be different depending on what the minor has done. In our program, if a child is non-complaint with probation requirements, the parent/guardian can then be held in contempt of court.

[countrygirl]

If he shouldn't be tried as an adult, and we all know that juvie is probably not a good idea, what should his punishment be then? He brutally attacked a small child and beat him/her to death with a bat. What is the answer? How do you punish someone this young that commits a crime this awful?

That's exactly what I said earlier. What do you do with them? I agree with some other ideas that the parents should face some punishment, but what do you do with the child? I think my only answere would be to take kids out of homes that are inadequate sooner.