Yet another Pagan holiday taken over by Christians: The REAL Valentine's Day

[Conveyor Belt]

The eve of the Roman feast of Lupercalia. Naked youths would run through Rome, anointed with the blood of sacrificed dogs and goats, waving thongs cut from the goats. If a young woman was struck by the thong, fertility was assured. Pope Gelasius I decided this was a bit too much, and co-opted the Roman holiday to be the Feast of St. Valentine in 484 A.D.



Interesting. I think the corrupted, overtly commercial version is a bit more fun... but then again, I've never run naked through Rome covered in the blood of dogs and goats, waving thongs cut form goats and trying to hit young women with them. Sound a bit like Mardi Gras...

[Bluesman]

Interesting. I think the corrupted, overtly commercial version is a bit more fun... but then again, I've never run naked through Rome covered in the blood of dogs and goats, waving thongs cut form goats and trying to hit young women with them. Sound a bit like Mardi Gras...
Just what the Hell is a "goat thong?" I have raise goats for several years and have never "cut a thong" from them... I am not even sure that is a cut of meat.

[aaron]

Hmm, we seem to have a different view of Valentines. I'd say it's a pagan holiday celebrated by Christians without doing things like calling it X-Tines day.

[Lylabean]

I say it's a day to remember St. Valentine, who was killed on February 14th for refusing to give up Christianity.

Some experts state that it originated from St. Valentine, a Roman who was martyred for refusing to give up Christianity. He died on February 14, 269 A.D., the same day that had been devoted to love lotteries. Legend also says that St. Valentine left a farewell note for the jailer's daughter, who had become his friend, and signed it "From Your Valentine". Other aspects of the story say that Saint Valentine served as a priest at the temple during the reign of Emperor Claudius. Claudius then had Valentine jailed for defying him. In 496 A.D. Pope Gelasius set aside February 14 to honour St. Valentine.

Full text here. (http://www.pictureframes.co.uk/pages/saint_valentine.htm)

[Hermione]

I say it's a big racket to sell chocolate, flowers and stuff, but I've always enjoyed it. At least I used to, and I'm trying to keep a good attitude. For me as a Christian, it has no significance at all.

[Conveyor Belt]

I say it's a day to remember St. Valentine, who was killed on February 14th for refusing to give up Christianity.



Of course you do... Just like you say Christmas is for the birth of Christ, Easter if for the Ressurection, etc. etc. and so forth.

[JMC]

Of course you do... Just like you say Christmas is for the birth of Christ, Easter if for the Ressurection, etc. etc. and so forth.


I believe Christmas is for the birth of Christ, Easter is for the Ressurection. What's wrong with that?

[Conveyor Belt]

I believe Christmas is for the birth of Christ, Easter is for the Ressurection. What's wrong with that?

As long as you realize that the dates and times those holidays fall on were put in place to prevent people from celebrating Pagan rituals, then nothing.

[Fish-Bait]

What's a Pagan?

[JMC]

What's a Pagan?


Fagan but with a P.

[Fish-Bait]

Fagan what? or who or whatever....

[Fire Extinguisher]

As long as you realize that the dates and times those holidays fall on were put in place to prevent people from celebrating Pagan rituals, then nothing.

So true CB.

But knowing that should not reduce the importance of the celebration for those of faith that believe in them.

[Conveyor Belt]

So true CB.

But knowing that should not reduce the importance of the celebration for those of faith that believe in them.

No, but it kind of pisses off the people who believe in the ORIGINAL reason for the seasons.

[jojobeans1120]

No, but it kind of pisses off the people who believe in the ORIGINAL reason for the seasons.


SO, because those people get pissed off, they go off on rants and bash Christians?

I agree with what FE said, it shouldn't prevent them from celebrating, if that is where their TRUE beliefs were, unless perhaps it is just another excuse for some to find anything to b*tch about....:smt102

[Conveyor Belt]

SO, because those people get pissed off, they go off on rants and bash Christians?

Well, if someone took what was yours and made it theirs without ever ackowledging your contribution, or better yet, made you out to be the worst thing in the world, you might want to go off on a rant or bash them...

I'm just saying...

[Fire Extinguisher]

I cant without doing the research tell you what each one is but it seems to me years ago as I was deciding what religion to go with...

I found that the Church (Rome, and the one I went with) came up with Christian Holiday to 'offset' pagan holidays.

Sunday as the day of worship, If I recall was the day that the non-believers worshiped the sun.

Nothing wrong with all of that in my book.

[Lylabean]

Of course you do... Just like you say Christmas is for the birth of Christ, Easter if for the Ressurection, etc. etc. and so forth.

So St. Valentine was conveniently killed on this day so that Christians could yet again "claim" another pagan holiday? Yeah...right.

I'm quite aware of Christmas and Easter coincide with pagan holidays. I don't celebrate them for their pagan holidays, I celebrate them for the Christian holidays. I know wiccans an pagans who celebrate these times of year for the pagan holiday. Do I care? It's freedom of religion. They can do whatever they want. Do I think less of them as people just because they don't believe like I do? Absolutely not.

[Conveyor Belt]

So St. Valentine was conveniently killed on this day so that Christians could yet again "claim" another pagan holiday?

Might want to check your facts on that one...

Ancient chuch history indicates that there may have been a St. Valentine martyred in some year on Feb 14, but his reasons for martyrdom are murky at best.

[jojobeans1120]

Might want to check your facts on that one...

Ancient chuch history indicates that there may have been a St. Valentine martyred in some year on Feb 14, but his reasons for martyrdom are murky at best.


and here come the attempts to discredit and bash the beliefs of someone else.....

don't do it to them!!!! but, for God's sake, if you're a Christian, TAKE IT, SHUT UP, and ALLOW THEM TO DO IT WHEN THEY CHOOSE W/O ARGUMENT OR DEFENSE

[Conveyor Belt]

and here come the attempts to discredit and bash the beliefs of someone else.....



I am not, repeat, am no attempting to bash the beliefs of someone else.

But saying that someone died on X day when, according to church history, the date is fuzzy at best, is not truthful. Just as Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th and wasn't ressurected on the date of Easter, which is ever changing. That's a fact, not a bash. If you see them as the same, I'm sorry. I intended no such 'bash'.

[Lylabean]

Might want to check your facts on that one...

Ancient chuch history indicates that there may have been a St. Valentine martyred in some year on Feb 14, but his reasons for martyrdom are murky at best.

Did you read the quote from the webpage I cited? It said "experts believe."

Christmas and Easter are celebrated at the same time as pagan holidays..that is true. But to say Christians also took Valentine's Day away from the pagan holiday you described, which actually sounds like it's on February 15th, is stretching it a bit.

[mac]

I am not, repeat, am no attempting to bash the beliefs of someone else.

But saying that someone died on X day when, according to church history, the date is fuzzy at best, is not truthful. Just as Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th and wasn't ressurected on the date of Easter, which is ever changing. That's a fact, not a bash. If you see them as the same, I'm sorry. I intended no such 'bash'.

Who gives a fk if the dates are right? Most of the dates we celebrate anything older than a few hundred years are wrong.

[Blockhead]

SO, because those people get pissed off, they go off on rants and bash Christians?
Christians tend to bash everything that's not christian, and get agitated and offensive when someone points out that their way is neither the only way nor the original way. Take this thread for example.

[Blockhead]

Who gives a fk if the dates are right?
Apparently, people whose holidays were violated and stolen by christians. Just as one example, of course.

[Fish-Bait]

you said violated.

[Hermione]

Christians tend to bash everything that's not christian, and get agitated and offensive when someone points out that their way is neither the only way nor the original way. Take this thread for example.

Not that we're making any broad generalizations here or anything . . .

[jojobeans1120]

First of all, I wasn't bashing anyone. CB was the one going off because "the bad ol Christians took their holiday away, yet again."

OK, so the Muslims celebrate, as well as the Jews around Christmas time... are we out bashing them or trying to discredit their religions because of that? Ummm... No, and YOU are a liar if you say so!


Anyone want cheese with that whine?

[Conveyor Belt]

Anyone want cheese with that whine?

I think you bought it all up yourself.

[jojobeans1120]

Ummm, read the title of the thread. :smt023

[Conveyor Belt]

Ummm, read the title of the thread. :smt023

???

So, when next Christmas rolls around, and someone posts about Jesus being the true reason for the season, I can post something about needing some cheese with that whine? Gotcha.

[Blockhead]

you said violated.
In the same thread that someone else said "priest". I feel dirty.

[Blockhead]

Not that we're making any broad generalizations here or anything . . .
There's a subtle difference between pointing out tendencies and making sweeping generalizations.

[jojobeans1120]

???

So, when next Christmas rolls around, and someone posts about Jesus being the true reason for the season, I can post something about needing some cheese with that whine? Gotcha.


Since when have you, or those like you, not raised hell about the Christmas season???? :roll:

No more Christmas programs at schools, it isn't Christmas vacation.. it is "winter break," etc.


Cry me a freakin' river!!

There's been an ongoing attack on Christians and Christianity for years!!! Even YOU cannot deny that!

[Blockhead]

OK, so the Muslims celebrate, as well as the Jews around Christmas time... are we out bashing them or trying to discredit their religions because of that? Ummm... No, and YOU are a liar if you say so!
So you've never said anything negative about a store or person who says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? Because, if you had, then you absolutely were "trying to discredit their religions".

[jojobeans1120]

So you've never said anything negative about a store or person who says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? Because, if you had, then you absolutely were "trying to discredit their religions".

I can honestly say that I have NOT. I can't say that I agree with their policies. Apparently,most of Wal-Mart's employees didn't either. They voted to say "Merry Christmas," rather than "Happy Holidays."
When greeted with "Happy Holidays," I would in return, say, "Merry Christmas!" If that offended them, I hate it.
I have friends that aren't Christians, I do not degrade them or think less of them because of their beliefs. I will not say that I've not tried to share my beliefs with them, because I have. We've talked about religion on several occasions, as we have politics. ;)

[Blockhead]

Since when have you, or those like you, not raised hell about the Christmas season???? :roll:
Not that we're making broad generalizations or anything.


Cry me a freakin' river!!
You say this, then go on to cry a river of your own?

There's been an ongoing attack on Christians and Christianity for years!!! Even YOU cannot deny that!
I can.

There's freedom of religion, and then there's trying to force your religion onto the world around you. Whenever someone tries to push back, people like you climb up on their cross and claim religious persecution. If it weren't so effective, it would be hilarious.

[jojobeans1120]

There's freedom of religion, and then there's trying to force your religion onto the world around you. Whenever someone tries to push back, people like you climb up on their cross and claim religious persecution. If it weren't so effective, it would be hilarious.


There's a difference between freedom of religion and attacking another's religious beliefs! :smt023

[Blockhead]

I can honestly say that I have NOT. I can't say that I agree with their policies. Apparently,most of Wal-Mart's employees didn't either. They voted to say "Merry Christmas," rather than "Happy Holidays."
When greeted with "Happy Holidays," I would in return, say, "Merry Christmas!" If that offended them, I hate it.
Sounds a little like you're implying their beliefs don't have merit, or at least not as much as yours.

What I'm reading is that while you may not actively participate in trying to bury the religious beliefs of others, you support the idea. Interesting.

[Blockhead]

There's a difference between freedom of religion and attacking another's religious beliefs! :smt023
And as soon as the average christian learns the difference and applies it to their behavior, there'll be far less conflict. :)

[Blockhead]

Didn't mean to horn in on your turf, CB. As you were.

[jojobeans1120]

Sounds a little like you're implying their beliefs don't have merit, or at least not as much as yours.

What I'm reading is that while you may not actively participate in trying to bury the religious beliefs of others, you support the idea. Interesting.

And as soon as the average christian learns the difference and applies it to their behavior, there'll be far less conflict. :)


Actually, you're wrong on both of these. I've taken a world religions class and have a great amount of respect and appreciation for all religions, their origins, and times of celebrations. I do not care who you are, your beliefs, etc., I have no disrespect or ill will toward you until you begin attacking the heartfelt beliefs of others. You're accusing me of doing that, but I suggest you, along with a couple of others, take a long look in the mirror, my friend. ;)

[Blockhead]

Actually, you're wrong on both of these.
I would have to disagree whole heartedly.

I've taken a world religions class and have a great amount of respect and appreciation for all religions, their origins, and times of celebrations. I do not care who you are, your beliefs, etc., I have no disrespect or ill will toward you until you begin attacking the heartfelt beliefs of others. You're accusing me of doing that, but I suggest you, along with a couple of others, take a long look in the mirror, my friend. ;)
I liken myself to a slave back in the 1800s. Maybe I did say "cracka" once or twice. But under the circumstances, can you really blame me?

[mybabysmomma]

I think that this thread was started for one reason and one reason only. To inflame people's emotions. CB could have very easily titled the thread "Little Known Fact about Valentine's Day" (or something similar) and gave us a list of other things that this particular time of the year/holiday/whatever is used for and what it means to him and his particular beliefs. When the thread was titled, it was titled in such a way that people would immediately feel like they had to be on the defensive. It was a blatant and purposeful attempt to start something and then sit back and watch the chaos enuse. And it worked. Just my opinion.

[Fish-Bait]

Don't believe anything you read on the internet!!!!

[jojobeans1120]

I think that this thread was started for one reason and one reason only. To inflame people's emotions. CB could have very easily titled the thread "Little Known Fact about Valentine's Day" (or something similar) and gave us a list of other things that this particular time of the year/holiday/whatever is used for and what it means to him and his particular beliefs. When the thread was titled, it was titled in such a way that people would immediately feel like they had to be on the defensive. It was a blatant and purposeful attempt to start something and then sit back and watch the chaos enuse. And it worked. Just my opinion.


You couldn't be more right!

[jkspatty]

So you've never said anything negative about a store or person who says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? Because, if you had, then you absolutely were "trying to discredit their religions".


Which yammering group screwed up "Halloween?" We used to have Halloween Carnivals, now it is stupid ass "Fall Festivals". Somebody do some research and find out for me please.

[LipsofanAngel]

sheesh, all this over Valentine's???? wow.

I for one never knew there was anything related to Christianity that was associated with Valentine's... or any other religion or belief for that matter. I honestly thought (and still think) it's a marketing ploy.... much like was Christmas has become to much of the world.

[Fire Extinguisher]

Which yammering group screwed up "Halloween?" We used to have Halloween Carnivals, now it is stupid ass "Fall Festivals". Somebody do some research and find out for me please.


And the counter action to that one is All Saints Day on November 1 and All Souls Day on November 2.

[jkspatty]

And the counter action to that one is All Saints Day on November 1 and All Souls Day on November 2.


Counter action? Is that the name of the yammering group who screwed up Halloween?

[Conveyor Belt]

I love what some of you make me out to be. I wish I were 1/2 as smart and diabolical as you make me out to be. I don't think this way, so we'll leave it at that.

I could have titled the thread 100's of ways. I titled it the way I did because, frankly, I'm a little irritated at the sheer disregard for most holidays. There are several holidays that have origins much deeper than their current Christian shading. However, not many people know them.

I didn't take this thread in a negative way or in a 'bashing' way.

And here I sit. Again. writing out this same stuff I write out everytime this happens. Again.

Fact is, the holiday wasn't Christian, and it was taken over by Christians to be something else in order to steer the people away from celebrating those 'nasty Pagan rituals'. History is full of this. People LIKED the Pagan rituals. They were FUN. Then along comes the ancient, young Catholic church and snatches it away, paints it a different color, and shoves it back into the people's hands with approval.

So, if I offended you, I didn't intend to. I don't think that far ahead. Last I checked, you were in the GREAT majority...

[LipsofanAngel]

CB- I was not offended by the information you posted. And even though I'm a Christian, I'm glad that you are on this forum and provide us with information that we may not know about.

The Christian holidays I celebrate have nothing to do with a specific day... just happen to be the time of year that I acknowledge and celebrate certain aspects of my beliefs. I have no clue what came first, why those days were chosen, and what practices may have been in place beforehand. I certainly don't mind finding out though :)

[Conveyor Belt]

CB- I was not offended by the information you posted. And even though I'm a Christian, I'm glad that you are on this forum and provide us with information that we may not know about.

The Christian holidays I celebrate have nothing to do with a specific day... just happen to be the time of year that I acknowledge and celebrate certain aspects of my beliefs. I have no clue what came first, why those days were chosen, and what practices may have been in place beforehand. I certainly don't mind finding out though :)

See? Why can't everyone have your attitude about it?

[Conveyor Belt]

I thought this quote, from a character on a TV show was appropriate:

The truth ain't like a bunch of puppies, runnin' around, and you get to pick your favorite.

[LipsofanAngel]

cute quote... and true in MANY situations on here & in life.

[Blockhead]

Counter action? Is that the name of the yammering group who screwed up Halloween?
Nah. Just another of their braindead reactions to people celebrating something they don't believe in.

[Blockhead]

I thought this quote, from a character on a TV show was appropriate:

The truth ain't like a bunch of puppies, runnin' around, and you get to pick your favorite.
You'd never know it by listening to certain people.

[jkspatty]

CB you are one of my favorite posters here because you do create thought provoking, informative threads.

[Hermione]

Somebody screwed up Halloween? Last time I looked it was a huge business. My generation, the "I don't plan to grow up and you can't make me" Boomers, decided we wanted to remain children and keep our child holidays. So we snatched Halloween, which used to be fairly innocent and fun, and made it too dark and "adult" for a lot of people. Those people decided to have "Fall Festivals" -- which have a tradition as old or older than Halloween, going back to the dawn of agriculture in fact, and are equally as pagan. However, Fall Festivals or Harvest Festivals are still something reasonably calm and safe for little children. I don't know why the decision to hold an alternative event for yourself and your own children equals "screwing it up" for people who want to observe Halloween. (And for the record, I've made plenty of Halloween costumes in my day, including a memorable one when my son wanted to be a character from Clash of the Titans. Did you know that a pillowcase can be turned into the perfect Greek tunic for an 8 year old?)

[Conveyor Belt]

Somebody screwed up Halloween? Last time I looked it was a huge business. My generation, the "I don't plan to grow up and you can't make me" Boomers, decided we wanted to remain children and keep our child holidays. So we snatched Halloween, which used to be fairly innocent and fun, and made it too dark and "adult" for a lot of people. Those people decided to have "Fall Festivals" -- which have a tradition as old or older than Halloween, going back to the dawn of agriculture in fact, and are equally as pagan. However, Fall Festivals or Harvest Festivals are still something reasonably calm and safe for little children. I don't know why the decision to hold an alternative event for yourself and your own children equals "screwing it up" for people who want to observe Halloween. (And for the record, I've made plenty of Halloween costumes in my day, including a memorable one when my son wanted to be a character from Clash of the Titans. Did you know that a pillowcase can be turned into the perfect Greek tunic for an 8 year old?)

The REAL Halloween:

Samhain, pronounced sow-en and called Halloween today, is the ending of the Celtic year. The Celtic new year actually begins at sunset on October 31. This ritual is known as Ancestor Night or Feast of the Dead. Because the veil between the worlds is thinnest on this night, it was and is considered an excellent time for divinations. Feasts are made in remembrance of dead ancestors and as an affirmation of continuing life. A time for settling problems, throwing out old ideas and influences. This is either celebrated October 31, or the first Full Moon in Scorpio.