Are Americans Happy to Be Ignorant?

[fuzzis]

The Dumbing Of America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021502901_pf.html)

Call Me a Snob, but Really, We're a Nation of Dunces

...The problem is not just the things we do not know (consider the one in five American adults who, according to the National Science Foundation, thinks the sun revolves around the Earth); it's the alarming number of Americans who have smugly concluded that they do not need to know such things in the first place. Call this anti-rationalism -- a syndrome that is particularly dangerous to our public institutions and discourse. Not knowing a foreign language or the location of an important country is a manifestation of ignorance; denying that such knowledge matters is pure anti-rationalism. The toxic brew of anti-rationalism and ignorance hurts discussions of U.S. public policy on topics from health care to taxation....

[dollfus46]

I've been saying that since I came on here in 06. Or was it 07? But I do take exception with "not knowing a foreign language" as any indication of dumb. You can't fix stupid-Ron White. "He/She can vote?" - Mike Dollfus

[Butterball]

Amen, dolf..........

What scares me is 'they walk among us, and they vote'...........:smt103

[dollfus46]

Amen, dolf..........

What scares me is 'they walk among us, and they vote'...........:smt103

Heh heh heh. You mean, "They walk upright and they vote?":bowrofl:

[Butterball]

Now, dolf, I didn't call them 'knuckle draggers', :kekeke: but the truth can't be far from that......

It's so telling when you see Leno's 'man on the street' questions or others.
I mean, what do folk learn in school? And even more, are they being taught anything at home?

I do believe we are quickly becoming a nation of complacent, non-concerned do-dos. Woe be unto us all. :ohnoes:

[dollfus46]

Yep. I've seen Leno's "Man on the Street". At first I thought it was a set up, but it's not. It's funny and scary at the same time.

[jojobeans1120]

Isn't that the truth. It never fails, they manage to find the biggest idiots available!

[aaron]

If you would have done this same study in 1910, do you think the results would have been different? I really attribute some of this to information overload. It's becoming more and more necessary in this world that you specialize in specific areas, and really can't keep up with all that is thrown at you.

[jojobeans1120]

My son comes home with things and is learning things now, of course he's in advanced classes/gifted studies, that I didn't learn until high school!!!

:smt103

On the other hand, I have a friend that has a child in a neighboring county *coughperrycountycough* that is doing the same math my child did is doing in the third grade. The problem with that being, he's in the 6th-7th grade! :smt009

[onlyme]

I just read this article yesterday. Scary stuff :ohnoes:

>>Walking home to her Upper East Side apartment, she said, overwhelmed and confused, she stopped at a bar. As she sipped her bloody mary, she quietly listened to two men, neatly dressed in suits. For a second she thought they were going to compare that day’s horrifying attack to the Japanese bombing in 1941 that blew America into World War II:
“This is just like Pearl Harbor,” one of the men said.
The other asked, “What is Pearl Harbor?”
“That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War,” the first man replied.
At that moment, Ms. Jacoby said, “I decided to write this book.” <<

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[aaron]

My point is, there are probably the same number of actual dumb people in the U.S. that there was in the 1800 or 1900's. The only reason I would see the ignorance number increasing is information overload. Dumb does not equal ignorance. If your dumb you have an impediment to learning, if your ignorant, then you just haven't learned it.

[Bluesman]

So, knuckle draggers are bringing our intelligence down... You know what else is scary??? The repro. rate of those in question are probably 3-4 times that of the "smart" folks... That is why I think that this is certainly job security for special needs teachers... There will always be a job somewhere for someone in that field... that is for sure.

[jojobeans1120]

You mean those with their names on their shirts?

[onlyme]

My point is, there are probably the same number of actual dumb people in the U.S. that there was in the 1800 or 1900's. The only reason I would see the ignorance number increasing is information overload. Dumb does not equal ignorance. If your dumb you have an impediment to learning, if your ignorant, then you just haven't learned it.

I have a feeling - and correct me if I am totally wrong - that many Americans think they don't need to learn anything because " we are the greatest" anyway. There is a certain amount of arrogance involved in this kind of ignorance. Why learn a foreign language? Everybody should learn English. Why learn where Iraq, Iran etc. is? We are going to wipe them off the map eventually. Why learn about accomplishments of other nations when one lives " in the greatest country on God's earth"?

[jojobeans1120]

I couldn't agree more. Although we truly are the greatest nation in the world, we must compete and keep up on every level.
Americans do have a tendency to look down their noses at others. This is clear in every day society, but it is clear, more and more every day, that to compete on a global scale we are in desperate need of overcoming our superiority complex that we've acquired.

[fuzzis]

My point is, there are probably the same number of actual dumb people in the U.S. that there was in the 1800 or 1900's. The only reason I would see the ignorance number increasing is information overload. Dumb does not equal ignorance. If your dumb you have an impediment to learning, if your ignorant, then you just haven't learned it.

I don't think it's about information overload. I think it's about the choice we make. I'm guilty of it. Instead of reading one of the books I have at the house, I choose to spend my time on myhattiesburg. We're choosing the path of least resistance because those other things...like really spending the time to get to the heart of matters, to wrestle with ideas, to engage in text and come to some sort of conclusion...is hard work.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The article linked above talks about how this was first an issue for some folks starting as early as 1963, but arguably even before then. So it's not about information overload. Sorry.

[Bluesman]

I don't think it's about information overload. I think it's about the choice we make. I'm guilty of it. Instead of reading one of the books I have at the house, I choose to spend my time on myhattiesburg. We're choosing the path of least resistance because those other things...like really spending the time to get to the heart of matters, to wrestle with ideas, to engage in text and come to some sort of conclusion...is hard work.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The article linked above talks about how this was first an issue for some folks starting as early as 1963, but arguably even before then. So it's not about information overload. Sorry.
Isn't this about the same time when rampant drug use (marijuana and acid) started becoming a problem as well? Maybe there is something to that whole killing brain cells thing they preach about trying to keep kids off drugs. I don't do drugs but I know folks that do and to be honest with you I need all the brain cells I got.:smt023

[aaron]

I don't think it's about information overload. I think it's about the choice we make. I'm guilty of it. Instead of reading one of the books I have at the house, I choose to spend my time on myhattiesburg. We're choosing the path of least resistance because those other things...like really spending the time to get to the heart of matters, to wrestle with ideas, to engage in text and come to some sort of conclusion...is hard work.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The article linked above talks about how this was first an issue for some folks starting as early as 1963, but arguably even before then. So it's not about information overload. Sorry.

So, spend the time to read the book, then have studies released saying America is becoming anti-social? I mean, the characterization of a scientist is there for a reason. They don't have much time to be social. I have to agree with the opinion that I'm not sure why knowing these things matter. I know what I need to know. How does knowing that the sun is the center of our solar system contribute to my daily life? I mean, basically, why do we need to know this stuff?

[fuzzis]

So, spend the time to read the book, then have studies released saying America is becoming anti-social? I mean, the characterization of a scientist is there for a reason. They don't have much time to be social. I have to agree with the opinion that I'm not sure why knowing these things matter. I know what I need to know. How does knowing that the sun is the center of our solar system contribute to my daily life? I mean, basically, why do we need to know this stuff?

Ummmm...we used to be able to find a balance. It's really not an either/or type thing.

I don't really subscribe to the core knowledge stuff as promoted by Hirsch (author of the What Your XXX-grader Needs to Know series of books), but I do know that it becomes difficult to have any sort of dialog without a common frame of reference. When we don't have a clue about why things have happened in the past or what forces brought them about, then we really are just waiting to repeat them...while others have already figured it out and passed us up.

[Conveyor Belt]

People are too stupid to know how stupid they are.

[SueScribe]

If you would have done this same study in 1910, do you think the results would have been different?

Yes, I think the results would have been different, and it has nothing to do with information overload, it has to do with teaching the basics - the thee RRRs - and it has to do with parental involvement, rather than throwing X-Boxes at the little rug rats to occupy them, or allowing them to stare at endless cable TV channels, rather than becoming involved in their childrens' education.

It has to do with teaching DOWN, rather than UP, and it has to do, more than anything else, with the quality of education our children are getting these days, the 'Teach To The Test' mentality of a government gone bezerk.

My son comes home with things and is learning things now, of course he's in advanced classes/gifted studies, that I didn't learn until high school!!!

I don't know when you went to high school, but my graduating class was 1965, and the quality of education we received was, years ago, touted by the NEA as being the equivalent of a college degree in 1980s terms.

We had teachers who demanded excellence and who taught from that perspective. We were challenged, inspired, and led by gifted educators who were respected within the community, not ignored, not seen as baby-sitters for 6 hours a day.

If your dumb you have an impediment to learning, if your ignorant, then you just haven't learned it.

No, if you're ignorant, that is what you choose to be.

I have a feeling - and correct me if I am totally wrong - that many Americans think they don't need to learn anything because " we are the greatest" anyway. There is a certain amount of arrogance involved in this kind of ignorance. Why learn a foreign language? Everybody should learn English. Why learn where Iraq, Iran etc. is? We are going to wipe them off the map eventually. Why learn about accomplishments of other nations when one lives " in the greatest country on God's earth"?

:clap: Amen.

Isn't this about the same time when rampant drug use (marijuana and acid) started becoming a problem as well? Maybe there is something to that whole killing brain cells thing they preach about trying to keep kids off drugs. I don't do drugs but I know folks that do and to be honest with you I need all the brain cells I got.:smt023

What's killing the brain cells of our children isn't acid. It's indifference.

So, spend the time to read the book, then have studies released saying America is becoming anti-social? I mean, the characterization of a scientist is there for a reason. They don't have much time to be social. I have to agree with the opinion that I'm not sure why knowing these things matter. I know what I need to know. How does knowing that the sun is the center of our solar system contribute to my daily life? I mean, basically, why do we need to know this stuff?

Because, Aaron, knowledge is empowerment and it contributes to the overall health and prosperity of our nation.

Just this morning, I was forced to call my ISP about a technical issue and got a young man named "William", who clearly, probably has another given name, since he told me he was in India.

I began our conversation by apologizing to him and his region of the World for this nation's ignorance in electing a man who has created problems, not only in his area of the Globe, but who has likely caused William - and others - to believe that ALL Americans are as clueless as the leaders we elect. Believe it or not, he accepted my apology, wished he had a Green Card, and wished us well in "electing our next president".

That, in a nutshell, is where we are in this country, and it ALL comes down to TWO things, basically:

1. Ignorance;
2. Arrogance.

Ignorant arrogance are a deadly combination. Deadly.

[Bluesman]

So, knuckle draggers are bringing our intelligence down... You know what else is scary??? The repro. rate of those in question are probably 3-4 times that of the "smart" folks... That is why I think that this is certainly job security for special needs teachers... There will always be a job somewhere for someone in that field... that is for sure.
Yes, I quoted myself, cause I wanted to clarify something. First of all, I in no way whatsoever have anything against any special needs children. I have interactions with them everyday and actually appreciate some of them a lot more than I do most of the smart @$$e$ I deal with daily. I was only alluding to the fact that some folks that are just plain out ignorant should perhaps try condems or some other form of B.C. cause it just don't make no sense for kids to be brought into this world and not be nurtured and cared for and given the opportunity to succeed. It is a scientific fact that "nurture" is complimentary to "nature" when it comes to molding children from birth to kindergarten and beyond. Ignorant a$$es ain't got no business adding to the problems that children have already these days with all this drug use, peer pressure, and other issues that seem so minor to most of us but can be devastating to a child in terms of how they view/deal with those issues pyschologically.

[aaron]

Ummmm...we used to be able to find a balance. It's really not an either/or type thing.

I don't really subscribe to the core knowledge stuff as promoted by Hirsch (author of the What Your XXX-grader Needs to Know series of books), but I do know that it becomes difficult to have any sort of dialog without a common frame of reference. When we don't have a clue about why things have happened in the past or what forces brought them about, then we really are just waiting to repeat them...while others have already figured it out and passed us up.

Who's we? I don't understand how people are finding balance. I know I have a problem finding balance myself. If I actually recorded how much time I spent reading, playing, working, non-fiction, fiction, educational, entertainment, from month to month, it would go up and down constantly. That's me. I know other people that hate to read and hate to watch educational shows on television. They want to work, and be entertained. They are more social than I am. That's them.

If you judged everything on a scale, social activity, learning, work. Or even took in how much knowledge a person has about a every subject possible, for instance, if you don't know the earth revolves around the sun, do you know how to frame a house? I think the total number would balance out. Just because everyone isn't exactly the same isn't a problem, the ways of measurement is the problem. You cannot accurately judge a person's knowledge in my opinion. I can't tell you if your dumb just because you don't know what I do. I can say with some assurance that you probably know different things than I do. That's the whole reason team work is so powerful.

Are people mesmerized by the box with all the little people in it? Maybe, but the same number of people were mesmerized by other things when TV wasn't around. Not to mention the fact that they really didn't know what was going on if the neighbor across the fence didn't tell them about it.

[aaron]

No, if you're ignorant, that is what you choose to be.


That's correct, that's what I was saying. I am ignorant when it comes to nuclear physics. I've looked into it, but just can't grasp the concept, maybe because I don't know the underlying basic concepts or maybe because I don't have enough brain power to understand it. Either way, I'm ignorant on that subject. I'm willing to guarantee that 100 out of 100 people surveyed would be ignorant on one subject or another. Even in other countries. Does that mean we're declining as a race? No.

[dollfus46]

If you would have done this same study in 1910, do you think the results would have been different? I really attribute some of this to information overload. It's becoming more and more necessary in this world that you specialize in specific areas, and really can't keep up with all that is thrown at you.

Well, you have a point, to a point. ;) That's why I enjoy Are you as smart as a Fifth grader. I do pretty well but I dayum sure get stumped sometimes. I got stumped on absolute value of 9 once. Heck, it's been 50 years.

[fuzzis]

That's correct, that's what I was saying. I am ignorant when it comes to nuclear physics. I've looked into it, but just can't grasp the concept, maybe because I don't know the underlying basic concepts or maybe because I don't have enough brain power to understand it. Either way, I'm ignorant on that subject. I'm willing to guarantee that 100 out of 100 people surveyed would be ignorant on one subject or another. Even in other countries. Does that mean we're declining as a race? No.

:kekeke:

Last time I checked, "American" wasn't a "race"...it was a nationality...and mistakes like that, and your posts, would be what the commentary is talking about...a basic (not specific like what you're talking about with regard to framing houses or nuclear physics) ignorance about things that should be accepted as common knowledge and an acceptance of that ignorance, and hostility to acquiring or improving upon that basic knowledge.

[dollfus46]

No, if you're ignorant, that is what you choose to be.

I disagree. There's a difference in stupid and ignorant. We're all ignorant of some things, but we aren't too stupid to learn about it if we need to.

[aaron]

:kekeke:

Last time I checked, "American" wasn't a "race"...it was a nationality...and mistakes like that, and your posts, would be what the commentary is talking about...a basic (not specific like what you're talking about with regard to framing houses or nuclear physics) ignorance about things that should be accepted as common knowledge and an acceptance of that ignorance, and hostility to acquiring or improving upon that basic knowledge.

No, no, read again, I expanded it to include the entire world as being dumbed down.

[fuzzis]

No, no, read again, I expanded it to include the entire world as being dumbed down.

Well, that's even worse given our rankings with regard to the rest of the world...which the article talks about.

[Hermione]

Just out of curiosity, how many of us had to learn all the states complete with capitols, main products, date entered the Union, etc.? I don't remember all of them, but I actually know where every state is on a map and the capitols of most of them. I also remember everyone in the class in seventh grade having to do a report on some country. Mine was Paraguay. Of course, Europe is so different that some of that knowledge is useless now, but at least I know that Hungary is a country, and not a result of skipping lunch. :)
Personally, I think we're loading so much responsibility onto the public schools that time to teach basics is too limited.

[Desert Donkey]

Instant gratification and the path of least resistance are the Holy Grails of our time. The blank, deadpan stares of the people I see around town make me shudder with horror. How empty their lives must be, to have such a soul-less look on their faces.

"Why do I need to know XXXXX?" You don't, but for the sake of intellectual growth you should WANT to.

[PHDPLEASE]

Instant gratification and the path of least resistance are the Holy Grails of our time. The blank, deadpan stares of the people I see around town make me shudder with horror. How empty their lives must be, to have such a soul-less look on their faces.

"Why do I need to know XXXXX?" You don't, but for the sake of intellectual growth you should WANT to.

DD - those may be the wisest words I have ever heard.
:smt023

[aaron]

Well, that's even worse given our rankings with regard to the rest of the world...which the article talks about.

Again, rankings determined by whom? What tests? What knowledge is deemed as being more important and why is it more important than other knowledge? Again, the amount of facts known by the average American is probably the same as the early 1900's. This article stinks of intellectual elitism. I can picture her sipping tea and looking down on the poor as being disadvantaged. Consider the possibility that through the advances in technology, you are now exposed to more dumb people than you were before these advances occurred.

Instant gratification and the path of least resistance are the Holy Grails of our time. The blank, deadpan stares of the people I see around town make me shudder with horror. How empty their lives must be, to have such a soul-less look on their faces.

"Why do I need to know XXXXX?" You don't, but for the sake of intellectual growth you should WANT to.

Intellectual growth? That involves forming your own opinions and ideas about things. Not simply memorizing where the sun is in the universe or knowing where a country is on the map. Again, measurement is going to be all over the scale based on who grades the test.

Tell this same woman to go out in the rice fields of China, and ask them their opinion on the world economy. Ask the coffee growers of Brazil if they know German. The premise looks great on paper. The internet and TV are dumbing down America. Idiots just sit around and watch TV. I just think it's a news headline and not much more. No real long-term research history based on proven scientific methods is there to back that up. And she doesn't really back it up in the article.

I cannot prove that reading for hours in a treehouse (which is what I was doing when I was 13) creates more informed citizens than hammering away at a Microsoft Xbox or obsessing about Facebook profiles.But the inability to concentrate for long periods of time -- as distinct from brief reading hits for information on the Web -- seems to me intimately related to the inability of the public to remember even recent news events. et cetera
What the hell does that mean? Where are you getting that from? There have been many studies that concluded that video games improve hand-eye coordination and problem solving abilities. People are dumb because people are dumb, not because of our culture.

[Blockhead]

"Is our children learning?

-George W. Bush

[onlyme]

Tell this same woman to go out in the rice fields of China, and ask them their opinion on the world economy. Ask the coffee growers of Brazil if they know German.

I think you can only compare different countries if every citizen in each country has the same educational opportunities. Clearly that is not the case. In a highly developed country such as the USA where schooling is more or less mandatory ( are home schooled children required to test periodically? ) one expects a certain degree of knowledge/education. I just cannot fathom how anyone can sit through 12 years of classes and not have the slightest clue about world geography, science, politics. etc.

[Blockhead]

What's killing the brain cells of our children isn't acid. It's indifference.
*dingdingdingdingdingdingding*

[Blockhead]

I do believe we are quickly becoming a nation of complacent, non-concerned do-dos. Woe be unto us all. :ohnoes:
Becoming? I'd say the conversion is all but complete.

[fuzzis]

People are dumb because people are dumb, not because of our culture.

People are most certainly *ignorant* because of our culture...which does not value education nor promote critical thinking or problem solving.

[Blockhead]

People are most certainly *ignorant* because of our culture...which does not value education nor promote critical thinking or problem solving.
Keep 'em dumb and distracted. Fatten 'em up and dumb 'em down. Dumb sheep make the best sheep. They don't even realize they're being fleeced.

[aaron]

I think you can only compare different countries if every citizen in each country has the same educational opportunities. Clearly that is not the case. In a highly developed country such as the USA where schooling is more or less mandatory ( are home schooled children required to test periodically? ) one expects a certain degree of knowledge/education. I just cannot fathom how anyone can sit through 12 years of classes and not have the slightest clue about world geography, science, politics. etc.

I can, and it's very simple. An old adage comes to mind, "If you don't use it, you lose it". And since knowing these things are never a part of daily conversation or our lives, these Americans gradually forget. Are they dumber because of it? No. The show, Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader is a good example. I've seen people on there with educations from Yale and Harvard. They failed to get questions correct. Are these people stupid or ignorant? Again, no. As I have said, it's a great title, but the actual content of the article is terrible. There's really nothing to back any of this up.

As far as comparing countries, EXACTLY. No tests have been done in other countries. So, this (however bad of a theory it may be) cannot be put on the shoulders of just Americans. Let other countries experience the same type of information overload that we get, and test them. They will forget. They will watch TV. They will browse the internet. People die every year in Taiwan because they sit in an internet cafe browsing the internet for hours on end and didn't eat. They love it just as much as we do. In terms of history, it's all relatively new technology, and we will find ways to work it into our lives in a healthy way eventually. Some sooner than others.

[fuzzis]

It's not about information overload, though, aaron...and many, many cultures and societies are already suffering from our "information overload", yet their children are doing better on comparable tests...which is something that the author points out in her *book*.

[aaron]

It's not about information overload, though, aaron...and many, many cultures and societies are already suffering from our "information overload", yet their children are doing better on comparable tests...which is something that the author points out in her *book*.

Ok, so, take our children from the same time period in our country's development, and compare. Not our advanced society compared to someone just starting to bring education to the masses. Is this another article on how dumb American children are compared to other countries or Americans in general? It looked to me like she tackled a wide spectrum of people from children to college students to adults. With little evidence to back any of it up besides, "They all watch TV more than read books". What?

[fuzzis]

Ok, so, take our children from the same time period in our country's development, and compare. Not our advanced society compared to someone just starting to bring education to the masses. Is this another article on how dumb American children are compared to other countries or Americans in general? It looked to me like she tackled a wide spectrum of people from children to college students to adults. With little evidence to back any of it up besides, "They all watch TV more than read books". What?

She's talking about *developed* countries (http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=1) so yet another rather weak attempt to minimize is out the window. We don't measure up in basics: literacy, mathematics and science.

She talks about not only our children but our society as a whole. It's not like this a new problem. What do you think happens to those kids who aren't measuring up?

And the watching tv more than reading books is a HUGE issue, particularly for young children and the development of literacy skills. I've posted the statistics before (and I can again) but it is staggering what happens to a child depending on those critical first years. If they spend their time watching television, they are behind and it's a monumental effort (which we aren't doing so hot with) to bring them up to speed.

[Desert Donkey]

Intellectual growth? That involves forming your own opinions and ideas about things. Not simply memorizing where the sun is in the universe or knowing where a country is on the map. Again, measurement is going to be all over the scale based on who grades the test.

Of course you should form your own opinions, but without a wide base of knowledge, your basis for comparison is going to be exceedingly narrow. Why short-change yourself when you don't have to?

I agree that simply memorizing where the sun is in the universe or where a country is on a map is pretty useless, but what's wrong with asking questions about it? What's wrong with WANTING to know why the sun is where it is, or how that memorized country came to be?

The quest for knowledge is as old as humanity itself, but it sounds like people are willing to give it up in preference to the intellectual masturbation available in the world of HDTV.

Ugh...

[dollfus46]

I just read this article yesterday. Scary stuff :ohnoes:

>>Walking home to her Upper East Side apartment, she said, overwhelmed and confused, she stopped at a bar. As she sipped her bloody mary, she quietly listened to two men, neatly dressed in suits. For a second she thought they were going to compare that day’s horrifying attack to the Japanese bombing in 1941 that blew America into World War II:
“This is just like Pearl Harbor,” one of the men said.
The other asked, “What is Pearl Harbor?”
“That was when the Vietnamese dropped bombs in a harbor, and it started the Vietnam War,” the first man replied.
At that moment, Ms. Jacoby said, “I decided to write this book.” <<

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
I don't doubt for one second, that that conversation actually took place and verbatum too.:smt105

[dollfus46]

I have a feeling - and correct me if I am totally wrong - that many Americans think they don't need to learn anything because " we are the greatest" anyway. There is a certain amount of arrogance involved in this kind of ignorance. Why learn a foreign language? Everybody should learn English. Why learn where Iraq, Iran etc. is? We are going to wipe them off the map eventually. Why learn about accomplishments of other nations when one lives " in the greatest country on God's earth"?
If they think we're the greatest they need to wake up. We may be and we may not be. But sitting on our brains and letting someone else do it is not going to keep us "the greatest." "The race does not belong to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."- Unknown Heh heh heh.

[aaron]

She's talking about *developed* countries (http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=1) so yet another rather weak attempt to minimize is out the window. We don't measure up in basics: literacy, mathematics and science.

She talks about not only our children but our society as a whole. It's not like this a new problem. What do you think happens to those kids who aren't measuring up?

And the watching tv more than reading books is a HUGE issue, particularly for young children and the development of literacy skills. I've posted the statistics before (and I can again) but it is staggering what happens to a child depending on those critical first years. If they spend their time watching television, they are behind and it's a monumental effort (which we aren't doing so hot with) to bring them up to speed.

Ohh, well, if we're going to focus on children, and not talk about children 10-20 years ago and adults today, then we're going to have to get into things like No Child Left Behind and other programs where ignorance is basically tolerated and in some situations rewarded. If your not good at something, that's ok, we will give you this ribbon so your parents don't get angry at the school system and yell about discrimination. That may be the only leg this article has to stand on, unfortunately, she doesn't focus on American children, but America as a whole.

The bottom line is, and this is a point I've been trying to stress, is that there always have been, and there always will be...sheeple. They don't want these complex lives that you describe. They don't want to think. It's work to them. And to say that America is the only country affected by this problem...is ignorant.

I cannot prove that reading for hours in a treehouse (which is what I was doing when I was 13) creates more informed citizens than hammering away at a Microsoft Xbox (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Microsoft+Xbox?tid=informline) or obsessing about Facebook (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Facebook+Inc.?tid=informline) profiles.That sums up this article for me. She creates arguments and dismisses others based on nothing.

[dollfus46]

Yes, I think the results would have been different, and it has nothing to do with information overload, it has to do with teaching the basics - the thee RRRs - and it has to do with parental involvement, rather than throwing X-Boxes at the little rug rats to occupy them, or allowing them to stare at endless cable TV channels, rather than becoming involved in their childrens' education.

It has to do with teaching DOWN, rather than UP, and it has to do, more than anything else, with the quality of education our children are getting these days, the 'Teach To The Test' mentality of a government gone bezerk.



I don't know when you went to high school, but my graduating class was 1965, and the quality of education we received was, years ago, touted by the NEA as being the equivalent of a college degree in 1980s terms.

We had teachers who demanded excellence and who taught from that perspective. We were challenged, inspired, and led by gifted educators who were respected within the community, not ignored, not seen as baby-sitters for 6 hours a day.



No, if you're ignorant, that is what you choose to be.



:clap: Amen.



What's killing the brain cells of our children isn't acid. It's indifference.



Because, Aaron, knowledge is empowerment and it contributes to the overall health and prosperity of our nation.

Just this morning, I was forced to call my ISP about a technical issue and got a young man named "William", who clearly, probably has another given name, since he told me he was in India.

I began our conversation by apologizing to him and his region of the World for this nation's ignorance in electing a man who has created problems, not only in his area of the Globe, but who has likely caused William - and others - to believe that ALL Americans are as clueless as the leaders we elect. Believe it or not, he accepted my apology, wished he had a Green Card, and wished us well in "electing our next president".

That, in a nutshell, is where we are in this country, and it ALL comes down to TWO things, basically:

1. Ignorance;
2. Arrogance.

Ignorant arrogance are a deadly combination. Deadly.

Oh chit. :ohnoes:

[aaron]

Of course you should form your own opinions, but without a wide base of knowledge, your basis for comparison is going to be exceedingly narrow. Why short-change yourself when you don't have to?

I agree that simply memorizing where the sun is in the universe or where a country is on a map is pretty useless, but what's wrong with asking questions about it? What's wrong with WANTING to know why the sun is where it is, or how that memorized country came to be?

The quest for knowledge is as old as humanity itself, but it sounds like people are willing to give it up in preference to the intellectual masturbation available in the world of HDTV.

Ugh...

This quest for knowledge is still going on, arguably by more people today than in the early part of the century. How many people accepted that the earth was flat when they were told it was? Some people will tell you that we've made more advances in technology, medicine, and scientific knowledge in the past 200 years than we have in the previous 2000.

[dollfus46]

Just out of curiosity, how many of us had to learn all the states complete with capitols, main products, date entered the Union, etc.? I don't remember all of them, but I actually know where every state is on a map and the capitols of most of them. I also remember everyone in the class in seventh grade having to do a report on some country. Mine was Paraguay. Of course, Europe is so different that some of that knowledge is useless now, but at least I know that Hungary is a country, and not a result of skipping lunch. :)
Personally, I think we're loading so much responsibility onto the public schools that time to teach basics is too limited.
I had to learn states and capitals but not the rest. Only when MS entered the union, and ceceded. Pierre always blew me away. ND or SD, I can't remember which and Bismark is the other..............I think.:oops:

[Remington]

I had to learn states and capitals but not the rest. Only when MS entered the union, and ceceded. Pierre always blew me away. ND or SD, I can't remember which and Bismark is the other..............I think.:oops: And I can point out every state....EXCEPT, I keep getting Vermont and New Hampshire mixed up!

[SueScribe]

There is no long-term research history based on proven scientific methods ... to back that up.

Ah, but there is. Tonight, I'll find it for you.

There have been many studies that concluded that video games improve hand-eye coordination and problem solving abilities. People are dumb because people are dumb, not because of our culture.

Aaron, as long as there is an overwhelmning need for people with great eye/hand coordination (like typists, I suppose, or QBs, or . . snipers), fine. Problem-solving abilities? I guess you need to explain that to me.

However, the balance of civilization appear to be out-pacing our terrific eye/hand coordination and problem-solving skills.

Like I said, I'll get the stats for you tonight, and the last time I looked? They weren't pretty.

Keep 'em dumb and distracted. Fatten 'em up and dumb 'em down. Dumb sheep make the best sheep. They don't even realize they're being fleeced.

:clap: Tell it like it is, tell it like it is !!!

Baa-baa stupid sheep, have you any sense?
Nah sir, nah sir, you tell me who and where and when.

[Baloo]

I know enough to know that I don't know enough...

[chaz]

I had that view of America when I was 16. I've grown up some since then. I have had the opportunity to live, study, work, and teach in foreign countries. Anecdotally, I find that there are as many culturally illiterate people in America as there are in any other foreign country.

The "our country is the greatest" is not unique to America. Every country I've been to was like this. It is stronger in countries where the population is homogeneous, such that they do see themselves as a "race."

If Ms. Jacoby would deign to get out there with "the folks" of any country, she'd see that most have more pressing issues than as to why Kosovo has declared independence, or why the Tamil Tigers are shooting at people.

[mac]

58Ford has a good quote about stupid people. Maybe he'll be along to share it.

[dollfus46]

And I can point out every state....EXCEPT, I keep getting Vermont and New Hampshire mixed up!
I can point out about 46. Once I get into the area you're talking about, the little states above WV and below NY, I'm in trouble. I think I could do better on a bigger map. The exercise I tried was small, rendering those states really small.:smt023

[nooskye]

are home schooled children required to test periodically?

it actually depends on which state you live in. mississippi has zero reporting requirements for home schooled children, where as here in tennesse, the big girl only has to submit to standard achievement tests at the end of the normal school year ... but ... if you go further north, to ... let's say ohio ... where my sister home instructs, she has to report at the end of every grading period, just like a public school system would.

as far as the technology age and its effects on learning ... i'm going to have to both agree and disagree ... although i do think that most tv isn't exactly what i would want my kids exposed to, there are other things that are a part of our learning schedule ... the key is monitored moderation but there are some really good, developmental programs available that enrich the "common sense" factor, reading, math, other languages & cultures, social buidling, etc. ... from ages at birth all the way up to full grown adults. we should all make it a point & put forth the effort to learn one new FACT every single day ...

just on a side note ... someone had made referrence to "hand-eye" coordination ... just me, but i'm gonna say that i would WANT my surgeon to have that quality :-D ... yes, my kids play thier video games :smt118 i LOVE V-Tech & Leap Frog products!!!

[CircusRide]

The standardized testing for the NKLB has got to go! Bring back sentence diagramming! Bring back science projects! Stop teaching kids to memorize and make them learn.

[Bluesman]

I heard that ignorance was bliss... I guess if you are ignorant and don't know any better or care then you wouldn't have any worries. Never understood the profoundness of that statement till I started teaching. Some of it is due to genetics though and not attitude... Believe me I have met some of these kid's parents and the apples don't fall far from the trees I can tell you. It goes back to my genetics lesson... You can breed a jackass to a jackass but don't expect a thoroughbred. If you breed a jackass and a thoroughbred you gonna get a fast runnin, stubborn arse mule. The only way to get a thoroughbred is to breed to another thorougbred. I don't see why people don't understand this and quit watering down the genepool????:smt102

[Blockhead]

Because thoroughbreds won't give it up on the first date?


Baa-baa stupid sheep, have you any sense?
Nah sir, nah sir, you tell me who and where and when.
Nicely done.

Somewhere, in the distance, Nine Inch Nails' "The Hand That Feeds" is queued up.

[Bluesman]

Because thoroughbreds won't give it up on the first date?




I never thought about it that way but I do see how that could the answer...:smt102

[Blockhead]

I never thought about it that way but I do see how that could the answer...:smt102
Instant gratification strikes again.

[amanda]

Unfortunately, I think a lot of Americans are working with the adage "Ignorance is Bliss". It's just trickling down to our children more and more.

[Fire Extinguisher]

If parents don't give a rats ass kids don't either. Same for the system....if the parents don't expect much that all the system will give. Those systems with parents that demand more and give more get more. Those that demand while doing nothing get not much.

Don't tell me its because the parents did not get an education. Mines HS....wife GED.... one kid dropped out of college twice (my fault) one is working on Masters in Education.... the other in Private HS preparing for college.

[Conveyor Belt]

You guys, if you haven't already, need to watch Idiocracy. Here are two clips. If anything, just watch the first one.. the second is a bit longer:

YouTube - Intro Idiocracy (IN ENGLISH)

YouTube - Best of Idiocracy 1

[Fish-Bait]

Atari.

[Fish-Bait]

Ya'll thought I was gonna "ignore" this thread didn't-cha'....