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RedRocker
06-15-2008, 08:23 AM
Very soon, you will start to see E10 replacing regular unleaded at several unbranded stations in the Pine Belt, and branded stations will be close on their heels. Having read much about this, since I work for one of the companies that has these stations, I thought I'd share a little of what I have learned with you, to perhaps prevent you from having a very unpleasant experience with this transition.

On the upside, each gallon of E10 represents 10% less money going to the OPEC cartels that we all despise so much, and E10 is actually 89 octane ... replacing both regular AND midgrade, but at the price of regular unleaded ... minus a couple cents. Sadly, what you may have read about reduced economy with ethanol fuels is true, albeit grossly overstated by fearmongers. Ethanol is just not as volatile as gasoline, but the reduction in economy is easily offset by the fact that your entire fuel system will be much cleaner. Clogged injectors should become much more rare, thereby giving a net benefit.

On the downside, at least initially, ethanol attracts water like silica gel, able to absorb many many times the amount of water that straight gasoline can. The danger here is that once ethanol fuels absorb as little as 0.5%, they can and will "phase separate". This means the ethanol will leave the gasoline solution, forming a layer of ethanol-rich water at the bottom of the tank, and a layer of gasoline above it which no longer meets minimum octane specs. Ethanol is already present in a small percentage in all gasolines due to the mandatory phase-out of MTBE as the principal octane booster. The ethanol is now used to boost octane, and has the side-effect of giving us cleaner burning fuels, BUT ... if the ethanol is removed, then the gasoline loses octane rating ... as much as 6 points in literature that I have read. Ethanol also acts as a scouring agent, as does biodiesel, and it is highly recommended to retailers to have their tanks thoroughly cleaned prior to the introduction of biofuels. Ethanol will 'clean' dirty tanks, injecting a mix of particles into the dispenser. Micron filtration is the key. Before you get scared of the whole process, there are multiple safe-guards to be implemented which are sure to be adhered to by responsible retailers. If you are to buy E10, know your seller, and inquire about what precautions they take to insure the integrity of the fuels in their tanks.

For the car owner, there are things they should do as well. In cars over probably 5 years of age, or if you routinely let your tank stay below half-full (causing increased condensation), I would recommend having the fuel tank dropped and cleaned by a reputable repairman, and the fuel filter replaced. Ethanol will have he same effect on a dirty fuel tank as it does on a underground storage tank. I have a feeling that once E10 starts showing up locally, there will be a rash of car owners with fuel system probems caused by their own dirty fuel tanks, but the station owners will of course be blamed. I hope that these retailers will provide some sort of literature to educate consumers on this danger ... I know I am going to push for it with the company I work for.

I hope this helps somebody in some small way. This can be a great way to kick the OPEC guys where it hurts, as well as a boon to American farmers who will reap the benefits. Once again, farmers will be able to grow all the corn they want, without the government paying them not to. Now, if common sense can prevail in the Senate and House, the expensive corn subsidies they pay out can become a thing of the past, since corn farmers will be fully able to stand on their own 2 feet again and be proud of it. As much as I believe that corn is the WRONG crop to be doing this with, almost anything is preferable to being so dependent on OPEC. More on that later.

I can also add info on B5 and B10 biodiesel for anybody that is interested.

Conveyor Belt
06-15-2008, 08:29 AM
I recently finished a personal 'study' on the difference between the 10% Ethanol mixed fuel and standard fuel.

What I found was that the difference in price was less than $.005 a mile in gasoline. A difference of $1/tank of gasoline. The standard fuel out performed the Ethanol by 30 miles, which can easily be attributed to driving conditions, as I didn't adhere to the same exact driving pattern with each tank.

So, this week, I filled up with the Ethanol blend. Anything to stick it to OPEC.

RedRocker
06-15-2008, 08:42 AM
As a small side note, the discount tobacco store on 16th Ave in Laurel ... the one that has Pure signage, has regular gas that should be running about 90 to 91 octane for the regular price due to the fact that all their 93 octane premium was transferred into the regular tank in preparation for the E10 changeover in a week or so. If it wasn't so far, I'd go get some ...lol

By the way .... you didn't read that HERE. :)

RedRocker
06-15-2008, 08:45 AM
I recently finished a personal 'study' on the difference between the 10% Ethanol mixed fuel and standard fuel.

What I found was that the difference in price was less than $.005 a mile in gasoline. A difference of $1/tank of gasoline. The standard fuel out performed the Ethanol by 30 miles, which can easily be attributed to driving conditions, as I didn't adhere to the same exact driving pattern with each tank.

So, this week, I filled up with the Ethanol blend. Anything to stick it to OPEC.

Where did you find E10, if I might ask? Since I work all the time, I only seem to know what is going on with OUR stores. There's an idea ... if you know a store that sells E10 or other biofuels, post it here please.

Conveyor Belt
06-15-2008, 08:57 AM
Where did you find E10, if I might ask? Since I work all the time, I only seem to know what is going on with OUR stores. There's an idea ... if you know a store that sells E10 or other biofuels, post it here please.

Murphy's by WalMart in Petal has the "Blended with up to 10% Ethanol" sticker on all their pumps.

TheKing
06-15-2008, 10:31 AM
crap i guess i actually have to buy a fuel cap now

i didnt know about the water absorption of ethanol... but i had heard that its pretty much hell on all cars over 10 years old because it sludges up the fuel line... guess i know why and how

mike327
06-15-2008, 12:49 PM
It burns cooler also. less btu's, less heat, slightly less mpg. I am all for ethanol and biodiesel.

carsalesguy
06-15-2008, 12:52 PM
i've already seen what it does to some ford products- (namely a couple of grand marqui's, a mariner, 2 mountaineers, and an explorer with the 4.0)

i ain't touching it.

mike327
06-15-2008, 12:55 PM
i've already seen what it does to some ford products- (namely a couple of grand marqui's, a mariner, 2 mountaineers, and an explorer with the 4.0)

i ain't touching it.


What did it do?

betsy
06-15-2008, 12:58 PM
So I guess in my '98 Blazer that already just gets 17mpg and has some problems with missing that I had better do like CSG and not mess with it.

Fire Extinguisher
06-15-2008, 07:07 PM
The store at 42 and Herrington Rd in Petal has it also. I think the gas comes from Pine Belt Oil.

RedRocker
06-15-2008, 09:34 PM
So I guess in my '98 Blazer that already just gets 17mpg and has some problems with missing that I had better do like CSG and not mess with it.

I'd just be sure there is no water in the system and slap on a new filter. I would imagine that since it cleans so well, maybe it can even clear up the miss? lol i dunno. i'm gonna try it in mine.

MamaTyson74
06-15-2008, 09:37 PM
i've already seen what it does to some ford products- (namely a couple of grand marqui's, a mariner, 2 mountaineers, and an explorer with the 4.0)

i ain't touching it.
You should tell what it has done........I drive an Explorer :ohnoes:

carsalesguy
06-15-2008, 10:25 PM
there were several vehicles coming in for misses, hesitations, and loss of power.

the only thing in common was the type of gas used.

3 used one station, the rest used different places.

my car was designed to run on 87 octane and that's what it gets. not 89 with ethanol, not anything else.

but i'm the kind of person who is 100% into using OEM as much as possible on my newer vehciles. my honda uses mobil oil , so therefore i use mobil oil. not mobil one, not castrol syntec, but mobil. the nissan uses castrol since nissan USA has an agreement with BP America...

mike327
06-15-2008, 10:43 PM
there were several vehicles coming in for misses, hesitations, and loss of power.

the only thing in common was the type of gas used.

3 used one station, the rest used different places.

my car was designed to run on 87 octane and that's what it gets. not 89 with ethanol, not anything else.

but i'm the kind of person who is 100% into using OEM as much as possible on my newer vehciles. my honda uses mobil oil , so therefore i use mobil oil. not mobil one, not castrol syntec, but mobil. the nissan uses castrol since nissan USA has an agreement with BP America...

That could be anything, kind of a broad statement.

carsalesguy
06-15-2008, 10:47 PM
ok well they all used the 10% ethanol blend.

dreamhippy
06-15-2008, 11:56 PM
Lindsey Williams Author of "The Energy Non-Crisis:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&hl=en

brianinms
06-16-2008, 12:23 AM
I predict a lot of cars that will need new fuel filters, fuel pumps, and perhaps injectors. Typical gas station tanks have a few inches of water in the bottom of the tank, some even have up to 10 inches of water. As most people know gas doesn't mix with water, but ethanol with suck it right up.

I sure am glad I have a flex fuel vehicle.

RedRocker
06-16-2008, 01:19 PM
I predict a lot of cars that will need new fuel filters, fuel pumps, and perhaps injectors. Typical gas station tanks have a few inches of water in the bottom of the tank, some even have up to 10 inches of water. As most people know gas doesn't mix with water, but ethanol with suck it right up.

Our station managers are required to stick the tanks with water finding paste every Monday morning. If there is over 1/2", it must be pumped out ... or the Dept. of Agriculture can and will lock down and put a stop sale on that product from that station. This is a reduction from the formerly allowable 2" of water. Typical outflow pipes are positioned at 6" off the bottom to prevent pickup of sludge and/or water, so unless a tanker is dropping fuel and stirring up the substrate, you should be fine.

Once we change to E10, we will be sticking for water much more often, most likely having the drivers do it when dropping product. For ethanol, there is also a paste that detects phase separation.

Other semi-related things you may not know, other than the Dept.of Ag. water checks:

They pull octane samples twice per year. They show up unannounced, and have it tested by a lab. Stations that do not meet specs are required to extract all that fuel from the tank, then drop fresh product which will also be tested. They will not just allow you to dump a load of premium on top of it to raise the specs, you must remove it all.

Major oil companies test for brand integrity twice a year, or more often if they feel the need. Gasolines marketed by major oil companies carry chemical markers which identify that product to a laboratory tester. They will revoke a jobber's license to pull their product if that jobber is caught co-mingling, or selling another brand under their flag. They are very serious about this. Unbranded jobbers have much more leeway, and can sell whatever product is cheaper. Most regular unleaded gasolines are almost indistinguishable, but mid-grades and premiums have distinct, patented detergent additives that are unique to each brand.

Pumps are tested for proper calibration twice per year, or more often if there is a complaint. The Dept. of Ag. tester uses a 5 gallon test can that shows them whether the pump is over or under pumping, which is recorded in cubic inches. A differential of plus or minus 25 cubic inches will cause a pump to be locked until it can be repaired. The acceptable tolerance is +/- 6 cubic inches at 5 gallons, or just less than 1/2 cup.

aaron
06-16-2008, 01:29 PM
Even if the fuel is completely water-free, I do agree that cars will probably need to have some calibration to use this fuel. I don't buy 89 either, because I've just read a lot of information about auto computers now, and how they are set for a certain octane fuel. Anything else throws it off.

brianinms
06-16-2008, 01:34 PM
My father designs, builds and maintains gas stations for a living and during HS and college I would work with him as his assistant. I did most of the environmental work such as pumping out water, clearing monitoring wells, troubleshooting leak detectors and so forth. You will never be able to keep out all the moisture as the condensation and refilling of the tank will always cause moisture. One time I pumped out 4,000 gallons of water out of a 20,000 gallon tank ... man it wasn't pretty.

58ford
06-16-2008, 01:40 PM
I've got Ford's flex-fuel V6 that supposedly can burn anything from pure gas to pure ethanol. I tried a tank of ethanol once & got less mileage but seemed a little peppier than gas, but my mileage calculations could have been off. anybody else got a flex-fuel engine?? Good experiences, bad experiences?

RedRocker
07-25-2008, 08:41 AM
My father designs, builds and maintains gas stations for a living and during HS and college I would work with him as his assistant. I did most of the environmental work such as pumping out water, clearing monitoring wells, troubleshooting leak detectors and so forth. You will never be able to keep out all the moisture as the condensation and refilling of the tank will always cause moisture. One time I pumped out 4,000 gallons of water out of a 20,000 gallon tank ... man it wasn't pretty.

I'm pretty sure I know what tank that was. It was a fiberglass tank that had its top cracked open by a truck that was wayyy too heavy busting the concrete above the tank, and allowing water to run in from above. Big freakin mess to fix too.

Fire Extinguisher
07-25-2008, 10:04 AM
I have not made an actual GPM measure but with the 10% I have to fill up my little Toyota on the way home from work on the second day of the drive from Petal to Stennis.... with just gas I can make it to day three on the trip down...(actully fill up at BP in Petal)

Remington
07-25-2008, 10:21 AM
I have not made an actual GPM measure but with the 10% I have to fill up my little Toyota on the way home from work on the second day of the drive from Petal to Stennis.... with just gas I can make it to day three on the trip down...(actully fill up at BP in Petal)I noticed my MPG go down when using that gas. I think I will stick with 100% gas. E85 would be even worse.