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  1. #1
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    Smile Logical proof for God

    1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2) The universe began to exist.
    3) Therefore the universe has a cause.
    4) The cause must be personal to choose to create something rather than nothing.
    5) God is defined as "the personal creator of the universe."
    6) Therefore God exists.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    God didn't begin to exist. He always was and always will be.
    "If ever we forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be one nation gone under." Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Hey RLBaty, I do have an opinion on the issue. Some Christians say it is a few thousand years based on how they interpret scripture. Some scientists say that earth came into existence much longer than that in an event called the big bang. Regardless, it came into existence so it must have a cause which ultimately leads to God.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Baty, you're a boring troll. At least be entertaining.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Genesis1:1-2 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

    It is possible that there is a gap of time in between those two verses. So I have no reason to doubt what the current science says on the age. That being said, I don't think the scientists themselves are very sure of how old it is.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    I am open to debate on the issue. I am not discrediting the scientists that say things are much younger. I happen to think Answers in Genesis is a good ministry. But I guess the concept I am trying to get across is this Christian principle:
    In the essentials, Christians have unity. In the nonessentials, Christians have liberty. In all things, we show charity.

  7. #7
    MsMargatini Guest

    Re: Logical proof for God

    Around and around the mulberry bush we go!

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    RLBaty, what do you think of my points I have laid out for the existence of God?

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    How could imagination not have the power to come up with the idea. If you believe in Jesus than that means you don't believe in Zeus, Apollo, ect. That means that imagination created them, as well as every other religion that isn't Christianity.

    And scientists are pretty certain about the age other the earth, a little over 4 billion years. There is plenty of independent testing done. The Vatican has even embraced this as fact and to some extent evolution, although they look at it more like intelligent design. The problem young earth creationist have is not being able to admit the bible was written by man and translated many times over the years. It is hardly accurate anymore unless you know hebrew and have access to original scriptures. To god a day could be 24 hours or 24 million years, that the thing about an omnipotent deity, he doesn't have to stick to our understandings of time.
    Last edited by OPTiK STUDiOS; 04-01-2011 at 10:53 PM.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG39402 View Post
    RLBaty, what do you think of my points I have laid out for the existence of God?
    Reminds me of a philosopher called Descarte
    Live, Laugh, Love!!!

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    You don't need logic to prove God exists. You've got trees and babies and sunsets for that.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG39402 View Post
    1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2) The universe began to exist.
    3) Therefore the universe has a cause.
    4) The cause must be personal to choose to create something rather than nothing.
    5) God is defined as "the personal creator of the universe."
    6) Therefore God exists.
    Your assertions is accurate minus one thing. Everything that begins to exist does not necessarily have a cause. Or at least that would be a matter of opinion.

    Genetic mutations do not usually have a cause, they are mostly detrimental to an animal. When cancer is beginning it has no cause, it is simple a cellular accident.

    Idk it's just where my mind went when I read that

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by RLBaty View Post
    That's not "logical"!

    Imagination may do many things, but "create" the idea/concept of "God" is not one of them.

    Imagination may do many things with the idea/concept of "God" once it is "revealed", but it cannot "originate" the idea/concept.

    I think that is the case, and I think that is what the Bible teaches about such things.

    No one today originated the idea/concept of "God" which they have.

    No one today knows of anyone who ever originated the idea/concept of "God".

    It's a philosophic question/issue in that regard, and I have my opinion about that and which I think is what the Bible has to say about it as well.
    I am sorry you disagree, and I am not trying to say god is real or not real. I am simply pointing out that other gods existed before YHWY came on the scene. People created them, if by your logic that man can not create the idea of god means that Zeus, Poseidon, Raa and many more were actually real gods.

    Heck L Ron Hubbard created his own god and religion, as did Mormon founder Joesph Smith. People in African tribes, and other tribal communities have their own gods as well. People have been creating gods since the beginning of time.

    Now perhaps all the past gods of the known world were inspired by YHWY but why would he represent himself as so many different names and deities. Then again it could be a mis-communication on the early peoples behalf

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    No Message - Just A Nobody Have a drink on me. - hendrixfreak70 

    Re: Logical proof for God

    Personally, I don't care how old the Earth is. And I think it's ridiculous to place so much emphasis on the dang time line.

    I know where I'm going when I die, period. Thats pretty all much I need to know.
    You’re on your own, and you know what you know.
    And you will be the guy who’ll decide where you’ll go.
    Oh the places you you’ll go.
    ~~Dr. Suess

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Reminds me of great black holes in space. They are something, that is made of nothing, or in theory: You prove everything, while proving nothing.
    "Washington must tell people to work longer, pay higher taxes and expect less in retirement." There is our government telling us to suffer, while they live in mansions, drive luxury cars, dine on expensive meals, fly in private jets, etc. Like Guru said, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it." http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...02a_story.html

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by Arleigh View Post
    Personally, I don't care how old the Earth is. And I think it's ridiculous to place so much emphasis on the dang time line.

    I know where I'm going when I die, period. Thats pretty all much I need to know.
    If you are a believer than yes the time line is pointless. I was simply offering a argument that many people over look when discussing the concept of young earth creationism and the bible mixed with science.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    So what you are saying OS is that if I choose to call it "Taiowa, god of all creation" then that is ok.
    "Washington must tell people to work longer, pay higher taxes and expect less in retirement." There is our government telling us to suffer, while they live in mansions, drive luxury cars, dine on expensive meals, fly in private jets, etc. Like Guru said, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it." http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...02a_story.html

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by RLBaty View Post
    (1) There wouldn't be much to chat about if we agreed on everything.

    (2) The issue under consideration is not what God, but the idea/concept of God.

    (3) Folks have been taking the idea/concept of "God" such as has been "revealed" to them and using their imagination to work such over for a long time. That is not disputed and is to be distinguished from the issue under consideration here.

    (4) My unrebutted logic in eliminating "reason" and "imagination" and arriving at "revelation" as to the origin of the idea/concept of "God" does NOT mean what you propose.

    (5) Hubbard didn't originate the idea/concept of "God". He took such as was "revealed" to him and made it into something we know today as "Scientology". That is not disputed and is to be distinguished from what I am talking about here.

    (6) People have been taking the idea/concept of "God" such as has been "revealed" to them and changing it in many ways. That is not disputed and is to be distinguished from what I am proposing.
    Then I guess i have to agree to disagree. I feel like we are on such a similar page but the title is slightly different.

    I just don't see why YHWY would reveal himself to people like Greeks, Romans, Athenians, and the many other non christian religions and not lead them in his right direction. Unless you are suggesting that he did reveal himself and the people, for one reason or another, misinterpreted the info and created the wrong gods. Not saying it couldn't happen it just seems if they were divinly inspired then why would they be so drastically far off.

    PS I tossed Hubbard in as a joke, don't take that one serious. He was a sci fi writer and openly admitted his whole religion was born from a bet.

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamboi View Post
    So what you are saying OS is that if I choose to call it "Taiowa, god of all creation" then that is ok.
    I am not saying that at all, but if you believe it to be true than its your right to believe so. I have absolutely no problem with people believing in anything they want, including Scientology which I just ripped on in my previous post.

    I was simply attempting to point out that unless YHWH showed himself to earlier people that misconstrued his message. Then man at one point in history has invented a concept of god from their own imagination. Be it to explain the sun rising and setting, as an explanation for the stars, or why the wheat didn't grow.

    That doesn't disprove an existence but it means that if he didn't show to these people, then they invented their god(s)

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    Re: Logical proof for God

    Quote Originally Posted by RLBaty View Post
    (1) It's much better to agree to disagree than to become disagreeable.

    (2) Perhaps.

    (3) The issue I am dealing with is not about YHWY, other gods, or any specific revelations. It's about the philosophical/biblical question about the origin of the concept/idea of "God". There are, I propose, only 3 prospects:

    - Reason
    - Revelation
    - Imagination

    Atheists and I agree it wasn't by Reason.

    Atheists agree that if there was a God, that God could reveal himself to us.

    Atheists, obviously, reject Revelation.

    Atheists cannot actually account for the origin of the idea/concept of "God", but must default to Imagination and imagine that imagination can account for the ORIGIN of the very idea/concept "God".

    I deny, not being original with or alone in the denial, that Imagination has the power to ORIGINATE the idea/concept of "God".

    (4) Don't slight the Hubbard example; he's a great example of what I am talking about; what imagination is capable of and that Hubbard had the very idea/concept of "God" revealed to him before he ever imagined manipulating such into "his own image".
    I think most atheist default to that conclusion because of what I said earlier about their being the concept of deities prior to the major spread of the newer religions. I don't think the Bible can even claim to have the origin of the god concept, since its earliest writings were well after other people had created their own gods. You pose many interesting points to ponder on.

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